tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post115167569640656054..comments2024-03-28T21:21:02.777-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: bikur cholim (II)Chaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152113711323330342006-07-05T11:35:00.001-04:002006-07-05T11:35:00.001-04:00Re: the point of R'Ahron Soloveichick, when I hear...Re: the point of R'Ahron Soloveichick, when I heard it the missing piece is combining the rambam at the end of hilcos melachim which quotes the ve-rachamav al kol maasav for darchei shalom combined with the Rambam at the end of hilchos avadim, which again incorporates verachamav in the context of being nice to eved kenaanim because of the tzivui le-hedamos (i.e. vehalachta bedrechav)to HKBH. I was metzaeker so I hope this was still clear - but again see the rambam at the end of hilchos avadim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152113707660598172006-07-05T11:35:00.000-04:002006-07-05T11:35:00.000-04:00Re: the point of R'Ahron Soloveichick, when I hear...Re: the point of R'Ahron Soloveichick, when I heard it the missing piece is combining the rambam at the end of hilcos melachim which quotes the ve-rachamav al kol maasav for darchei shalom combined with the Rambam at the end of hilchos avadim, which again incorporates verachamav in the context of being nice to eved kenaanim because of the tzivui le-hedamos (i.e. vehalachta bedrechav)to HKBH. I was metzaeker so I hope this was still clear - but again see the rambam at the end of hilchos avadim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151857211709316352006-07-02T12:20:00.000-04:002006-07-02T12:20:00.000-04:00It's the gemara with Rebbi and yisurim. Anyway, y...It's the gemara with Rebbi and yisurim. Anyway, you see from the miyut of reiacha that an aku"m is excluded if not for darkei shalom/eivah, so that's the makor. R' Ahron discusses the Rambam in Perach Mateh Ahron vol i p. 68, but does not mention aku"m/ I wouldn't frame the issue as good thing vs. bad thing, but as mitzvah vs. reshus, which is a different discussion. Let's put it this way - would you say osek b'mitzvah patur min hamitzvah if you were engaged in doing chessed for an aku"m (assuming a chessed that you are indispensible for)?Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151701968426065062006-06-30T17:12:00.000-04:002006-06-30T17:12:00.000-04:00I think that it was between 1988 and 1992 -- proba...I think that it was between 1988 and 1992 -- probably 1990. I will check at home.<BR/><BR/>One further point -- the Netziv's hakdama to sefer Breishis seems to contemplate that acts of chesed (even for idolaters) constitute a lchatchila. He does not quote a source but it might be based on general principles of vhalachata bidrachav.<BR/><BR/>I also find it hard to understand Sefer Breishis if chesed for an idolater is not something intrinsically positive. Isn't Avraham our model of chesed -- yet the stories of chesed that we are supposed to emulate generally deal with idolaters. It would be strange to say that Avraham's actions were really assur but were only permitted because of eivah. One might repsond by saying that chesed on behalf of idoalters was a positive pre-mattan torah and a negative (absent eivah considerations) post matan torah. The difficulty with that is I am not aware of any source that makes that distinction and one would think that there would be a source (if it is true) as we are constantly told to look to maaseh avos in order to emulate their chesed.<BR/><BR/>As to tzaar baalei chaim being based on vhalachta bidracahav, I will have to check the sources. There is a gemara (I don't remember the cite) in which a tanna was punished for not having mercy on a weasel and the gemera cites vracahamav al kol maasav as the reason why he was punished.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151694864322396052006-06-30T15:14:00.000-04:002006-06-30T15:14:00.000-04:00That diyuk based on the pasuk the Rambam quotes is...That diyuk based on the pasuk the Rambam quotes is brought by R' W. Wurtzberger in his book as well. Would like to see your makor for v'halachta bderachav as the source for tza'ar ba'alei chaim. Point of fact is if the animal is owned by an aku"m and carrying the burdens of an aku"m the Rambam says you should unload it because of aivah (hil rotzeiach 13:9) - according to your approach, why indeed is this not listed with the other mitzvos of darkei shalom/v'halachta b'derachav even in the Rambam's formulation? I was never particularly convinced of the diyuk based on the pasuk tov Hashem lakol - I think you need more evidence. Which cheilek of Beis Yitchok is it in? Maybe I have it at home.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151693885620843392006-06-30T14:58:00.000-04:002006-06-30T14:58:00.000-04:00That is certainly the view of RAS and RAL -- I thi...That is certainly the view of RAS and RAL -- I think that RAS quotes other sources that seem to say the same thing. The Rambam certainly seems to hold that way as he quotes the pasuk of "tov hashem lakol vrachamav al kol maasav" when discussing chesed on behalf of gentiles. Perhaps the Rambam views darchei shalom as itself a form of vhalachta bidrachav based on the pasuk of drachehah darchei noam. Also, I think that there are many sources that state tzaar baalei chaim is a fullfilment of vhalachta bidracahav -- it would be hard to understand why it would be a fulfillment of the mitzvah in the case of chesed performed on behalf of an animal but not in the case of a gentile (at least in the case of a non-idolatous gentile).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151692557397770672006-06-30T14:35:00.000-04:002006-06-30T14:35:00.000-04:00The only problem is such a statement appears to fl...The only problem is such a statement appears to fly in the face of a mefurash gemara (gitin 61a) that says we do bikur cholim for an aku"m because of darkei shalom. Are you suggesting that darkei shalom is itself a kiyum of v'halachta b'derachav and not just a b'dieved m'shum eivah type halacha to avoid strife (R' Wurtzberger tries to develop a similar approach in his book on jewish ethics)? Seems a bit of a stretch.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151688335507909492006-06-30T13:25:00.000-04:002006-06-30T13:25:00.000-04:00Rav Aharon Soloveichik discussed this issue in an ...Rav Aharon Soloveichik discussed this issue in an article in Beit Yitzchak about bikur cholim. He said (based on the Rambam at the end of hilchot melachim) that, unlike vahavta lreacha, vhalachta bidrachav would also apply to acts of chesed that are perforemd on behalf of gentiles. Rav Aharaon Lichtenstein made a similar point in an article that was published in a Gush journal -- he said that one fulfills two mitzvos when one performs chesed on behalf of a Jew (vahavta lreacha and vhalachta bidrachav) and one fulfills one mitzvah when one performs chesed on behalf of a gentile (vhalachta bidracahav).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151681690790581452006-06-30T11:34:00.000-04:002006-06-30T11:34:00.000-04:00Previous comment was directed to Bill's comment.Ch...Previous comment was directed to Bill's comment.<BR/>Chaim M. - you are essentially coming back to the shita mekubetzet's answer, but why would you use v'halachta b'derachav just to teach you parameters but not as the source of the chiyuv? Once you are learning from Hashem's middot, why not go all the way?Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151681569419668782006-06-30T11:32:00.000-04:002006-06-30T11:32:00.000-04:00I was wondering about the first point as well, but...I was wondering about the first point as well, but it seems this is not an isolated gezeiras hakasuv but a binyan av that kavod habriyos is doche a mitzva, see Tos in B.M. 30b.<BR/>Forget the comparison to hinuach - you can't hear saying that the din of aveida is mufka from the object? Another example of similar lomdus: R' Scheinberg asks in Mishmeres Chaim how does osek b'mitzvah patur min hamitzvah work by a perutah d'rav yosef (b. k. 56) where a shomeir is watching an object - osek b'mitzvah only takes off an aseh, but tzedaka also entails a lav of lo te'ameitz es levavcha? Seems to me the answer is that if you are a shomeir aviedah, then this poor person does not have the din ani which is mechayeiv tzedaka. I guess you won't like that one either, but other people I have bounced it off have, so I guess it is a matter of taste. <BR/>The more important question is what other sevaras can you use to answer the kashe if you avoid v'halachta b'derachav as the source of bikur cholim? Suggestions?Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151680772334535662006-06-30T11:19:00.000-04:002006-06-30T11:19:00.000-04:00Maybe you can use the idea from Rabbi Sacks to ans...Maybe you can use the idea from Rabbi Sacks to answer thequestion. The m'chayeiv of bikkur cholim is v'ahavta l'rayacha but the parameters are defined by looking at examples. If HKBH went out of his way to visit Avraham we see that there is no such thing as it being aino l'fi k'vodo. If it was proper for Hashem the ultimate Melech to do it then it is proper for anyone to do it.Chaim Markowitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08927146649559508598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1151680273417580992006-06-30T11:11:00.000-04:002006-06-30T11:11:00.000-04:00Isn't there a p'tur learned from a pasuk about ave...Isn't there a p'tur learned from a pasuk about aveida and zakein? There is no such p'tur for other mitzvos (including bikur cholim). (This is a question on the Shitta).<BR/><BR/>To wit: there is a famous story told about a turn-of-the-century godol (R. Chaim Ozer???). He was not feeling well one Sukkos day, but was entertaining a guest in the Sukka. He excused himself from the guest and told the guest that he had to lay down in the house - because he was a 'miztaer'. After a few minutes he returned. When questioned by the guest, the godol answered that by the mitzva of Sukka, there is a p'tur of miztaer. But there is no such p'tur when it comes to hachnosas orchim!<BR/><BR/>Also, b'michilas k'vodcha, the idea of quantifying the object as an "aveida" based on the status of the finder is rachok me'od min haseichel, and has no comparison at all to the din of "hinuach" - where that is an indication that the object was never "lost".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com