tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post115263187711414033..comments2024-03-25T09:43:27.402-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: how to approach the words of a talmid chacham or tzadikChaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152726600148017132006-07-12T13:50:00.000-04:002006-07-12T13:50:00.000-04:00Noam Elimelech, P’ Pinchas:“There are two categori...Noam Elimelech, P’ Pinchas:<BR/>“There are two categories of people: (1) the low and wicked, who when they see a tzadik walking in innocence, attack and molest him, claiming they are simply zealous in the service of G-d which burns in their heart; (2) the righteous, who truly burn with the zealous service of G-d and attack the truly wicked. Who can indeed prove with whom lies the truth [i.e. which group is which]? The answer is that one whose words reverberate and find acceptance in the heart [of the listener] speaks truth and is a tzadik, for ‘words which come from the heart enter the heart’, leading to unity [achdus] between him and them. This is the meaning of Pinchas… b’kano es kinasi b’tocham [within them], meaning his zealousness entered their hearts and his deed was found to be just in their [the Jewish people’s] eyes.”Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152710502981713422006-07-12T09:21:00.000-04:002006-07-12T09:21:00.000-04:00I will bl"n post it. You need a copy of the sefer...I will bl"n post it. You need a copy of the sefer - it's not online.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152670733271963182006-07-11T22:18:00.000-04:002006-07-11T22:18:00.000-04:00>> take a look at the Noam Elimelech at the beginn...>> take a look at the Noam Elimelech at the beginning of this week's parsha ...<BR/><BR/>Where/who/what is this? Do you have a link to where I could take a look at it?Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09467293583953795947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152645568082756392006-07-11T15:19:00.000-04:002006-07-11T15:19:00.000-04:00>>>I think that the problem lies not in the princi...>>>I think that the problem lies not in the principle of ruach hakodesh (or even nevuah) or daas Torah existing among the tzadikim and talmidei chachamim, but rather in how to identify a true tzadik and talmid chacham.<BR/><BR/>Exactly true! I was thinking of this as well, and in case I do not get to it take a look at the Noam Elimelech at the beginning of this week's parsha who addresses this specific point.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152645467725921332006-07-11T15:17:00.000-04:002006-07-11T15:17:00.000-04:00Bill - correct, I am talking about torah topics on...Bill - correct, I am talking about torah topics only, the sort of things found in seforim, be it halacha, hashkafa, etc. Asking a Rav what toothpaste to use wastes their time and yours. <BR/>Lo tasur may be limited only to sanehdrim hagadol, though see sefer hachinuch.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152644608640667412006-07-11T15:03:00.000-04:002006-07-11T15:03:00.000-04:00I think that the problem lies not in the principle...I think that the problem lies not in the principle of ruach hakodesh (or even nevuah) or daas Torah existing among the tzadikim and talmidei chachamim, but rather in how to identify a true tzadik and talmid chacham. Clearly, we seem to have lost a basic understanding of what both of these essentially are and have settled for defining them strictly according to academic Torah scholarship, which IMO, is bogus and power-serving.Lorihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09467293583953795947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152644434946663952006-07-11T15:00:00.000-04:002006-07-11T15:00:00.000-04:00All of these sources (and "Sod Hashem Lirai'av" - ...All of these sources (and "Sod Hashem Lirai'av" - in Sotah) deal with decisions related to Torah topics. The truth is, it's a pasuk in the Torah ("lo sasur"). However, no Rabbi can legitimately claim prophesy relating to what brand of toothpaste I should use, or if I will be matzliach should I enter a certain business deal. That is - I think - where the Great Divide is within Orthodoxy.<BR/><BR/>Also, it's a matter of trust. I think the general populace (even the "skeptics/rationalists") would react differently if Moshe Rabbeinu told them something, than if R. Elyashiv told them the exact same thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152638260987807902006-07-11T13:17:00.000-04:002006-07-11T13:17:00.000-04:00I think I can fit the answer in here: GH, your com...I think I can fit the answer in here: GH, your comment confuses making decisions through inspiration with a transcendent view of torah with making infallible decisions. One does not equal the other. Yes, even gedolim make mistakes, not because G-d deliberately confuses anyone (that amounts to removing bechira), but because even the insight granted to them does not abjure the possibility of mistake. So the bottom line principle as you put it is correct – leaders do make decisions, for better or for worse. The difference between Torah leaders and you and I is that Torah leaders have better intuition and sense of perspective. The point is that decisions of torah sometime transcend being formulated in a mechanical positivist type fashion and spring instead from the overall sense of torah a gadol has.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152637456742988272006-07-11T13:04:00.000-04:002006-07-11T13:04:00.000-04:00GH, I will address your questions in a seperate po...GH, I will address your questions in a seperate post. I just note here that you are correct that I deliberately and unapologetically exclude many groups who label themselves orthodox from my 'entire spectrum'. Many gedolim on the 'right' obviously disagreed with the Rav, but treated him as a bar-plugta, a view to be taken seriously and grappled with - the same respect is accorded many of his talmidim. The same is not true of the leaders aligned further to the left, whose views are not even considered worth addressing. Whether this amounts to a political agenda or a discrimintation of scholarly ability is obviously a point that can be debated, but it is irrelevant to the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who call themselves bnei torah DO fall somewhere within what I defined as the spectrum. By definition, those further to the left have chosen to identify with views not shared by broader segments of orthodoxy, and I do not need to server as their spokesperson nor to pretend their views are representitive of the mainstream. <BR/>But for the meat and potatoes of what you raise, stay tuned...Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152635552563073602006-07-11T12:32:00.000-04:002006-07-11T12:32:00.000-04:00Chaim: Well said. (or if you prefer, gut gezukt...Chaim: Well said. (or if you prefer, <I> gut gezukt </I>)<BR/><BR/>One of my most vivid memories of the many shiurim I attended from my rebbe, R Yehuda Parnes, was on a R. Akiva Eiger in Shabbos when we were learning that masechta. RAE asked a really, really tough kashya on a Tosafos -- and anyone who knows RAE knows that his kashyas can be devastating.<BR/><BR/>After some back and forth pipul, RAE writes:<BR/><BR/><I>lo yaradeti le sof daatam shel baalei ha Tosafos </I><BR/><BR/>While I do not recall R. Parness' exact words, I do recall him emphasizing how important such intellectual anivus to any aspiring talmid chacham.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1152635299586002462006-07-11T12:28:00.000-04:002006-07-11T12:28:00.000-04:00> Recognizing that certain tzadikim and talmidei c...> Recognizing that certain tzadikim and talmidei chachamim are endowed with perspective to make decisions that effect the Torah world even when they cannot reduce their answer to a clear formulation or intellectual argument from precedent is a view shared by the entire spectrum of orthodoxy and not particular to a marginal stream. Differences in the scope and degree to which we take this idea, or whether it should be labeled ‘ruach hakodesh’, ‘da’as torah’, or a ‘transcendent perspective’ should not obscure the fundamental agreement on principle.<BR/><BR/>There are plenty of examples of tzadikim making bad decisions, e.g. Not leaving Europe before the Holocaust. Yes, I know you have the excue of God deliberately confused them. So what good are their decisions? You never know if they are correct or if God is davkah confusing them. The principle may just be a simple one: Leaders make decisions (for better of for worse). Hopefully we have informed leaders who make good decisions. End of story. No transcendent ruach hakodesh required. And anyway, I seriously doubt the 'entire spectrum' of Orthodoxy buys into this, though maybe in your view YU is the extreme left wing edge of Orthodoxy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com