tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post115323213622734474..comments2024-03-25T09:43:27.402-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: psak and sha'as hadechak: R' Shachter's article (II)Chaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-78749442365319905672007-04-24T09:18:00.000-04:002007-04-24T09:18:00.000-04:00Best regards from NY! 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Al korchecha you have to say m'ikar hadin it is permitted, but in deference to kavod harav (RHS) or in deference to the majority of opinions of what zman KS is we postpone leining it until later.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153494302978677402006-07-21T11:05:00.000-04:002006-07-21T11:05:00.000-04:00Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was not askin...Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was not asking a question - I was trying to answer the question R' Schacter posed. From this particular halachoh in Orach Chaim (which might not be applicable to a Yoreh Deah situation)I derive that in a shaas hadchak situation, there is no mikar hadin. For a person in a non-emergency situation, there exists an ikar din, and that ikar din may be that something is "assur". However, in extenuating circumstances, the ikar din is irrelevant, it "disappears" as it were, since the concept of ikar din is only applicable to a individual in a normal, regular set of circumstancesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153432456449038462006-07-20T17:54:00.000-04:002006-07-20T17:54:00.000-04:00Anonymous - is this a question? Sorry, i simply a...Anonymous - is this a question? Sorry, i simply am not following what you are trying to prove.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153426037910842212006-07-20T16:07:00.000-04:002006-07-20T16:07:00.000-04:00Please excuse my ignorance.If you take a look at t...Please excuse my ignorance.<BR/><BR/>If you take a look at the S"A Orach Chayim, Siman 58, Seif 4, the Mechaber paskens that if an individual who is not an "anoos" went ahead and leined krias shema after alos and before neitz, that person is yoitzeh bediavad. <BR/><BR/>The MB in seif katan 19 states that if the person who is in a situation of "sha'as hadchak" needs to lein k"s, even on a consistent basis, then it is permitted for him to act accordingly, because what else can he (i.e. no alternative). However, a person who relies of this leniency and is not in a position of "sha'as hadchak" than he may be yoitzeh bdiavad on occasion but if he relies on it consistently, than he is no even yoitzeh bdiavad.<BR/><BR/>It appears from this MB that given the choice of whether one will be able to perform the mitvoh of k"s or not, than in such a situation one is allowed to lein earlier to allow one to do so. It seems that l'chatchiloh and bediavad disappear for an "anoos" and since there is only one possibility or option available to him, than he has no choice but to be lenient and perform the mitzvoh in this manner.<BR/><BR/>Applying this to Rav Schacter's kashye, shaas hadchak makes the m'<BR/>ikar hadin "disappears" as it were, thereby leaving the only option available - the kuloh. <BR/><BR/>What do you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153316197270857902006-07-19T09:36:00.000-04:002006-07-19T09:36:00.000-04:00Both the article and the original shiur (which I h...Both the article and the original shiur (which I heard online!) mentioned that the Rema himself in the introduction to <I> Toras Chattas </I> says something along the lines of what RMS said. Anyone have access to that sefer and can see what exactly the Rema says?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153315199315338372006-07-19T09:19:00.000-04:002006-07-19T09:19:00.000-04:00Yehudah, another example of that type approach is ...Yehudah, another example of that type approach is the gemaras that tell us in the place where the da'as yachid was moreh d'asra you follow his psak even though otherwise one would not, e.g. Shabbos 130, and many other places. But I have a hard time thinking these considerations apply to a machlokes mechaber/rama.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153274310631868632006-07-18T21:58:00.000-04:002006-07-18T21:58:00.000-04:00Yehuda-you must mean niddah 7b and RE who argues o...Yehuda-you must mean niddah 7b and RE who argues on RY.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153270175023476622006-07-18T20:49:00.000-04:002006-07-18T20:49:00.000-04:00The Rosh in Sukka 3:14 discusses the issue of hete...The Rosh in Sukka 3:14 discusses the issue of heter b'shaas hadchak as opposed to other times very clearly. K'dai to see.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153263498699861912006-07-18T18:58:00.000-04:002006-07-18T18:58:00.000-04:00Niddah 7a The gem says we paskened like RY in his ...Niddah 7a The gem says we paskened like RY in his dor lkvodo but afterwards reverted to what we feel is the halacha.I realize that sugya is not talking about shas hadchack just I'm pointing out that the gem felt we can deduce thatwe were noheg like RY lkvodo and not eternly bound by his shitto m'ikar hadin.Actually I agree with you more then my post implies because lmaase(1)the shach YD 242 says that although we don't always pasken like the rov l'maashe rov is doraaso and we can't be somech on a daas yochid by a diraaso even b'shas hadchack(2)niether the shach ibid or the SO CM 25 in discussing klloley horah make any referance to kovod hrav IIRC.Furthermore I retract my question from brechos 9a above as the loshon of the RIF "l'chatcila lo" or RASHI "shlo bshas hadchak lo"is equivocle enough to say that m'ikkur hadin we hold like RSBY.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153251606492915672006-07-18T15:40:00.000-04:002006-07-18T15:40:00.000-04:00>>>but rather to places where based on the klloley...>>>but rather to places where based on the klloley horah we understand that the chumrah must have been due to kovod harav<BR/><BR/>Can you give me/us an example?Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153250250684915142006-07-18T15:17:00.000-04:002006-07-18T15:17:00.000-04:00Yes I am trying to limit this but not to places wh...Yes I am trying to limit this but not to places where it is explicit in the chumra that it is due to kovod h'rav but rather to places where based on the klloley horah we understand that the chumrah must have been due to kovod harav.Hoewever if we were to feel that klloley harah would require us to act a certain way(e.g. the morah d'asrah paskened that m'ikur hadin one must be macmir) even shas hadchak wouldn't allow us to deviate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153249070413244072006-07-18T14:57:00.000-04:002006-07-18T14:57:00.000-04:00>>>RMS is not the first place I have seen that one...>>>RMS is not the first place I have seen that one can only rely on shas hadchack where m'ikur h'din it is mutter<BR/><BR/>That point is not a chiddush. The chiddush is that the chumra is m'din kavod harav and not simply because we are choshesh m'dinei issur v'heter for the more machmir shita when we can. <BR/><BR/>>>>I understand him as saying that in a case where the kloley horah would allow a certain action BUT due to kvod harav we were not noheg to or mekabel issur THEN we can act differently in shas hadchack<BR/><BR/>I don't see how your understanding is different than mine, except that you seem to be trying to limit this to cases where it is explicit that the chumra is based on kavod harav. I don't see how you can claim that about most cases in Y.D.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1153248640256825092006-07-18T14:50:00.000-04:002006-07-18T14:50:00.000-04:00RMS is not the first place I have seen that one ca...RMS is not the first place I have seen that one can only rely on shas hadchack where m'ikur h'din it is mutter.I understand him as saying that in a case where the kloley horah would allow a certain action BUT due to kvod harav we were not noheg to or mekabel issur THEN we can act differently in shas hadchack(i.e. there was no kabbolah/neder to be machmir in shas hadchack if we were machmir due to kvod harav);Hoarah on the gem brechos of "kdai RSBY lismoch oluv b'shas hadchack"(a zaemanim shaalo)Rasai,the rif and rosh all say that he isn't yotzey if it isnt't shas hadchak whice implies that even m'ikur hadin we don't hold like RSBY other then shas hadchak.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com