tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post3038450814371552335..comments2024-03-25T09:43:27.402-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: Tosfos vs. the Ran on counting sefirah earlyChaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-27361061187846415992010-05-11T19:19:02.136-04:002010-05-11T19:19:02.136-04:00Who says we don't? That's why the minhag ...Who says we don't? That's why the minhag of counting sefira in the middle of the haggadah is difficult to understand.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-69608805516239264752010-05-11T18:10:28.142-04:002010-05-11T18:10:28.142-04:00I have a different question which I am unsure if y...I have a different question which I am unsure if you addressed If on Shavous by night we wait for Marriv Late for Temimos why dont we have to Daven Marrriv earlier on Pesach For the Same reason?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-49221402873363800622010-05-09T19:54:37.823-04:002010-05-09T19:54:37.823-04:00>>>does Yom haShabat before the Qidush ha...>>>does Yom haShabat before the Qidush have less Qedusha than after it ?<br /><br />No, the day's kedusha is not effected, but you have failed in your chovas hagavra to be a mekadesh b'knisas shabbos. <br /><br />With respect to sefirah, what does it mean to say the day is tamim apart from the chovas hagavra to count? I don't understand what you are saying. Kedusha is a quality of the day, temimus is not.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-2122729192958138612010-05-09T17:22:03.740-04:002010-05-09T17:22:03.740-04:00Chaim B.( 9:31 AM): There is no kedushas hayom to ...<b>Chaim B.</b>( 9:31 AM)<b>:</b> <i>There is no kedushas hayom to omer</i> ...<br /><br />I didn't say that there is.<br /><br /><b>Chaim B.:</b> ... <i>nothing is qualitatively different about the day. You just have a chovas hagavra to count.</i><br /><br />According to Rav Shachter's <i>Chidush</i>, there is a qualitative affect of the <i>Sefira</i>: If it is said early, that day is <i>Tamim</i>, to all opinions. The Ran differs from the <i>Tosafot</i> only in saying that even if one counts later, it holds for <i>Temimot</i> - retroactively.<br /><br />What I meant to say was that the days can be <i>Temimot</i>, regardless of when the <i>Sefira</i> is done, even without it having to happen retroactively from the <i>Sefira</i>.<br /><br /><b>Chaim B.:</b> <i>Because you need a seudah and you can't be kovea seudah before ma'ariv. (Actaully, IIRC, there is a question raised whether you could have your seudah before ma'ariv if you daven kabbalas shabbos very early. I forget why this is frowned upon.)</i><br /><br />So back to my other question: According to the Tur, does <i>Yom haShabat</i> before the <i>Qidush</i> have less <i>Qedusha</i> than after it ? How so ?Tamirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-78822264981404482522010-05-09T09:31:28.551-04:002010-05-09T09:31:28.551-04:00>>>the numbering of the days of the Omer(...>>>the numbering of the days of the Omer( and their fullness) and the Qedusha of the Shabat occur regardless of our actions,<br /><br />There is no kedushas hayom to omer -- nothing is qualitatively different about the day. You just have a chovas hagavra to count.<br /><br />>>>If so, why not suggest the Qidush be recited right after Qabalat Shabat<br /><br />Because you need a seudah and you can't be kovea seudah before ma'ariv. (Actaully, IIRC, there is a question raised whether you could have your seudah before ma'ariv if you daven kabbalas shabbos very early. I forget why this is frowned upon.)<br /><br />>>>The Qidush haChodesh makes the 30th day what it wouldn't have been otherwise. How do the others do the same ?<br /><br />It's just an analogy -- you are definitely right, the mechanism must be different.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-13956928343510068152010-05-09T08:23:55.400-04:002010-05-09T08:23:55.400-04:00[ Re: Sefirat ha'Omer] In other words, just li...[ Re: <i>Sefirat ha'Omer</i>] <i>In other words, just like kiddush hachodesh by beis din, even if done mid-day, retroactively creates a status of kedusha on the entire day</i>...<br />and<br />[ Re: <i>Qidush</i> for <i>Shabat</i>] <i> The Rambam, however, understood</i> ... <i>like the kiddush hachodesh of beis din.</i><br /><br />I would have thought there is a major difference between <i>Beit Din</i>'s <i>Qidush haChodesh</i> and <i>Sefirat ha'Omer</i>\<i>Qidush</i> for <i>Shabat</i>:<br />In <i>Qidush haChodesh</i> the <i>Beit Din</i> decides whether the previous month was 29 or 30 days. When they decide that the previous month was 29, the would-be 30th day becomes the first of the new month even after the day has already begun, <i>i.e.</i> retroactively. The retroactive nature of <i>Qidush haChodesh</i> of <i>Beit Din</i> is the result of them deciding, as things are happening, the day the new month begins.<br />In the cases of <i>Sefirat ha'Omer</i> and <i>Qidush haShabat</i> the essence of these days already exists beforehand, regardless of whether, and when during the day, we perform the <i>Sefira</i> or <i>Qidush</i>: <i>Shavu'ot</i> falls on the 50th day from after the first day of <i>Pesach</i> regardless of whether one stopped counting, and one is no less obliged concerning <i>Qedushat haShabat</i> for not reciting the <i>Qidush</i>. On the other hand, if <i>Beit Din</i> do not do <i>Qidush haChodesh</i> on the 30th day of the preceding month, it does not become the <i>Rosh Chodesh</i> of the new month.<br />The <i>Qidush haChodesh</i> makes the 30th day what it wouldn't have been otherwise. How do the others do the same ?Tamirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-18567691809217047802010-05-09T05:59:59.396-04:002010-05-09T05:59:59.396-04:00... the Ran may hold that the count of sefirah don...... <i>the Ran may hold that the count of sefirah done at any point during the night covers the entire time period in question</i> ... <i>the count of sefirah done at any point during the night effectively includes every moment of the night in the mitzvah, retroactive to the night's beginning.</i><br />( and later...)<br />[ Re: <i>Qidush</i> on <i>Shabat</i>]<i> The Rambam, however, understood that kiddush works even retroactively</i> ...<br /><br />Why the need to say that, for the Ran, the <i>Sefira</i> of the day, and, for the Rambam, the <i>Qidush</i>, work <b>retroactively</b> ?<br />Why not say that, for the Ran and the Rambam, the numbering of the days of the <i>Omer</i>( and their fullness) and the <i>Qedusha</i> of the <i>Shabat</i> occur regardless of our actions, and the <i>Sefira</i> and <i>Qidush</i>, respectively, are simply our acknowledgements of them( and <i>Zerizim Maqdimim laMisvat</i>) ?<br /><br />Also,<br /><i>According to the Tur, the mitzvah of kiddush serves to sanctify the time of Shabbos going forward from the moment it was recited. Therefore, to encompass as much of Shabbos as possible, kiddush must be recited at the earliest possible moment.</i><br /><br />Does this mean <i>Yom haShabat</i> before the <i>Qidush</i> is recited, for the Tur, has <b>less</b> <i>Qedusha</i> than afterwards ?<br /><br />If so, why not suggest the <i>Qidush</i> be recited right after <i>Qabalat Shabat</i>( <i>Mizmor Shir leYom haShabat</i>), before <i>Barekhu</i> and <i>Qeri'at Shema' shel Arvit</i> are said( like the <i>Tosafot</i> you bring seems to imply for <i>Sefirat ha'Omer</i>) ?Tamirnoreply@blogger.com