tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post4774011145163981035..comments2024-03-28T21:21:02.777-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: tradition or traditionalesqueChaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-48778265537252286282009-05-18T12:46:00.000-04:002009-05-18T12:46:00.000-04:00"Since you are citing history, contemplate the fac..."Since you are citing history, contemplate the fact that during the Holocaust, some 100,000 Jews were killed in Lithuania but some 3 Million were killed in Poland. Should give you a clue as to the relative size of the Jewish communities in the two countries."<br /><br />The area frum Jews refer to as Lithuania is a larger than the current boundaries of the Lithuanian state.Shlomonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-21761980220409611212009-05-05T19:08:00.000-04:002009-05-05T19:08:00.000-04:00Well my ancestors came from Lithuania and Germany....Well my ancestors came from Lithuania and Germany. The men shaved and wore the style of suits of their contemporaries. But what Chaim was really driving at was, say, someone with this type of ancestry decided to go "traditional" and abstain from cutting a boy's hair until the age of three, he actually would be deviating from his own minhag. That would be a traditionalesque thing to do. <br />(Now I will point out that it was fairly common to keep a boy's hair long until the age of 3 or even 5 in Europe and and even America up to the beginning of the 20th century. However, if one wants to be consistent with that tradition, which was not a religious one but across the board, then one would have to also dress those boys in dresses. You can check it out by observing portraits of very young boys from that period.) <br /> The upsherin was limited to a particular area but has been adopted by many Jews who cannot trace themselves back to that area because they find the practice appealing. The little boys look so cute in their curls. It is a nice way to mark a transitional point (which used to include "breeching" -- a boy's first pair of breeches given once he advanced beyond the age of dresses). It is another occasion for a party, which can provide parnasa to caterers, entertainers, and photographers. And so this quaint custom is adopted just like brides don white gloves to match their vision of what a Victorian bride would have done.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-27666627888040759692009-05-05T18:30:00.000-04:002009-05-05T18:30:00.000-04:00"Never mind that their ancestors who came off the ..."Never mind that their ancestors who came off the boat at Ellis Island from Lithuania wearing regular suits and hats and never had long peyos and a scraggily beard"<br /><br />Who told you their anscestors were from Lita? Maybe their anscestors were Chassidish?<br /><br />Since you are citing history, contemplate the fact that during the Holocaust, some 100,000 Jews were killed in Lithuania but some 3 Million were killed in Poland. Should give you a clue as to the relative size of the Jewish communities in the two countries.Tal Benscharnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-60751706939721739752009-05-05T15:08:00.000-04:002009-05-05T15:08:00.000-04:00You know Reb Moshe's teshuva about whether we must...You know Reb Moshe's teshuva about whether we must wear distinctive clothes. He says that while there are medrashim that say that this was a zechus of Klal Yisrael in Mitzrayim, that was only because before Matan Torah our distinctiveness consisted only of those superficial things. Now, that we have taryag mitzvos that distinguish us, it is no longer vital that we dress and speak in a distinctive manner. The logic of the teshuva goes hand in hand with your thesis.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-84358527658675764432009-05-05T09:25:00.000-04:002009-05-05T09:25:00.000-04:00Because the past being recreated is a product of i...Because the past being recreated is a product of imagination and marketing and no more -- it is a collection of inessential qualities irrelevant to the substantive essence of Judaism yet are passed off as a substitute (and in fact as more essential) than the real thing.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-42175332416076008492009-05-05T08:39:00.000-04:002009-05-05T08:39:00.000-04:00I'm still not sure what you point is. Is it not a...I'm still not sure what you point is. Is it not a fact that Eastern European Jewish males wore distinctive clothing, had beards, payos, long coats etc? <br /><br />Surely the reason these were abandoned, to the extent they were, was due to poverty/assimilation/secularization? What exactly do you find objectionable in newly frum(er) people attempting to recreate the past?Daas Yuchidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1063182239356374912009-05-04T21:48:00.000-04:002009-05-04T21:48:00.000-04:00changed the post slightly in light of your comment...changed the post slightly in light of your comment, though the substance remains the same.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-80661247069595950642009-05-04T20:25:00.000-04:002009-05-04T20:25:00.000-04:00"Never mind that their ancestors who came off the ..."Never mind that their ancestors who came off the boat at Ellis Island from Lithuania wearing regular suits and hats and never had long peyos and a scraggily beard"<br /><br />I have photographs of my family in Lita, taken in the 1920's. Those born in the mid 1800's all have beards (some even scraggily ;-) ) None are wearing "regular hats", they all sport the the traditional Russian kasket. Payes are not ling, but clearly visible.Daas Yuchidnoreply@blogger.com