tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post5565075467716423204..comments2024-03-25T09:43:27.402-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: more on "Maimonides, Spinoza and Us"Chaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-12509842539822315532010-05-03T08:23:53.438-04:002010-05-03T08:23:53.438-04:00Chaim, it depends on the blog. Parshablog does no...Chaim, it depends on the blog. Parshablog does not just publish rumours and heresay. If he makes an assertion he has the documentation to back it up.<br /><br />The comparison with Newton is also very relevant. Newton, as a scientist, was working with the understanding and knowledge base of his day but he also expanded it when he discovered that previous "facts" about gravity were incorrect. He didn't simply say "Well, this is how I heard it from my elders". That's how science works.<br /><br />The point I'm trying to make is the same one I started with: on either end of the spectrum you will find views that exclude the opinions of the other end. Neither is ideal. Somewhere in the middle is much, much better.Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-19093950290802107772010-05-02T20:42:10.569-04:002010-05-02T20:42:10.569-04:00I believe RCK's assertion as to his own belief...I believe RCK's assertion as to his own beliefs:<br />http://parsha.blogspot.com/2009/08/is-rav-kanievsky-now-heliocentrist.html?showComment=1271933673622Baruch Peltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178212221463356386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-35396933255044396352010-05-02T19:21:40.070-04:002010-05-02T19:21:40.070-04:00Do you believe every report on the internet about ...Do you believe every report on the internet about what RCK holds?<br /><br />But more importantly, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? As I wrote above, the issue here may simply be lack of knowledge, not denial of reality. Isaac Newton held of some pretty bizarre stuff even for his time - are you going to tell me that this proves he is not a scientist and we should throw out his contribution to physics?Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-69602693885659311052010-05-02T17:54:35.498-04:002010-05-02T17:54:35.498-04:00Here`s another current authority who questions whi...Here`s another current authority who questions which revolves around which:<br /><br />http://parsha.blogspot.com/2010/05/more-on-rav-kanievsky-and-heliocentrism.htmlGarnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-69646606097473462292010-04-30T18:23:40.279-04:002010-04-30T18:23:40.279-04:00Rabbi Angel makes reference (p. 162) to an "i...Rabbi Angel makes reference (p. 162) to an "important 20th century rabbinic figure" who held that accepting the heliocentric model is kefira, but he neglects to tell us who this figure is. He claims the Chazon Ish also held that the heliocentric model is incorrect because it runs contrary to Chazal, but is not kefira. Little problem: his footnote is not from the C.I.'s seforim, but rather from a secondary source, so I at least have no way to check it (I am under-impressed with people who cull stuff from a kli sheni). <br /><br />But G.I., let's not confuse two different issues. There is a difference between not knowing scientific fact and therefore taking the default position that Chazal are right until proven otherwise vs. holding to a literal interpretation of Chazal even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence (which is why I would like to see the Chazon Ish). The C.I. may simply have not known all the facts and would indeed change his mind if convinced otherwise. After all, this is the same Chazon Ish who readily accepts that treifos no longer die within a year, despite what the gemara tells us! To assert that he clings to text and ignores reality is flat out wrong.<br /><br />It is hard to argue lack of sufficient proof with respect to geocentrism, but such a position seems at least possible with respect to the issue of evolution, one of Rabbi Angel's other examples. Remember that you and most of us still cling to the belief that the 5 books of Moses were given by G-d through Revelation despite the fact that 99% of the academic community thinks such an idea is nuts and lacking in historical or scientific evidence. The "gedolim" may simply be happy to fight that 99% on the evolution issue.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-44703045807319983242010-04-30T13:20:54.202-04:002010-04-30T13:20:54.202-04:00To the best of my knowledge, the LR only said that...To the best of my knowledge, the LR only said that based on the theory of relativity, since everything is moving, it is all a matter of perspective, and we see things from our perspective. I don't think shluchim are good resources in this regard.<br /><br />That statement was not what got RNS "convicted of heresy." If you want to discuss that, however, we would have to do it offline.Yosef Gavriel Bechhoferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264311760560329892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-20772148161813166752010-04-30T12:16:43.907-04:002010-04-30T12:16:43.907-04:00The Lubavitcher Rebbe, z"l, firmly held that ...The Lubavitcher Rebbe, z"l, firmly held that science was wrong and that we live in a geocentric universe. A recent conversation I had with the local shaliach confirmed that they treat this as dogma not to be questioned. He was a bit more evasive on the flat earth query mind you.<br />As for others, I draw that from logical inference. One of the "outrageous" states in "The Challenge of Creation" was that Chazal had scientific knowledge as was current in their time and therefore did not know about atoms, dinosaurs, etc. Therefore any scientific statements they made had to be understood in that way. If they claims a mouse evolved from mud or that lice generated from sweat, well it's not that they were stupid, chas v'shalom but they were stating scientific knowledge of the day. <br />For saying this, Rav Sliffkin was convicted of heresy. I therefore conclude that according to the proponents of the ban I must believe all the science Chazal stated without question. Some of those proponents are quite mainstream.Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-9137054358457695992010-04-30T11:10:55.477-04:002010-04-30T11:10:55.477-04:00GI, I was obviously unclear myself. I meant to cha...GI, I was obviously unclear myself. I meant to challenge your assertion that there are Charedi <i>authorities</i> - of such mainstream credentials in their world as March Angel has in his world - that assert that the Sun revolves around the Earth, etc.<br /><br />In other words, I am taking issue with the "moral equivalence" you draw when you assert:<br /><br /><i> I would therefore suggest that what Rav Angel is doing is not something unique or special but just part of a trend, albeit from a different side of the spectrum.</i>Yosef Gavriel Bechhoferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264311760560329892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-30042207352493427202010-04-30T11:06:52.702-04:002010-04-30T11:06:52.702-04:00YGB, I may have been unclear and I apologize for t...YGB, I may have been unclear and I apologize for the confusion. I did not mean the imply that Rabbi Angel believes in spontaneously generating lice. I certainly would not question his knowledge, piety and dedication to the Modern Orthodox rabbinate, chas v'shalom.<br />However, one thing the Sliffkin controversy brought to light is that there are a number of authorities in the Chareidi world, or so we are told by their representatives, who hold that every statement on nature or science in the Gemara must be accepted as fact because Chazal "knew all". It is those folks I was referring to as being on the right fringe.<br />For those on the left, the Torah must sometimes be molded to fit in with reality as science understands it. For those on the right, science has to be molded to fit in with their understanding of Torah. I prefer the middle approach myself.Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-2839828274212468162010-04-30T08:12:00.693-04:002010-04-30T08:12:00.693-04:00"On the other hand, those on the right fringe..."On the other hand, those on the right fringe will scoff at valid scientific facts if it contradicts their beliefs, like spontaneously generating lice or the sun revolving around the Earth."<br /><br />Really? Marc Angel's credentials certainly do not seem to be of the lunatic fringe:<br /><br /><i>Rabbi Angel has a long career of service to his congregation and community. He has served as President of the Rabbinical Council of America, the Rabbinic Alumni of RIETS, Sephardic House, and various other organizations. He has served as an officer and board member of UJA-Federation of New York, the HealthCare Chaplaincy, American Sephardi Federation, Cancer Care and other agencies. He has won national rabbinic awards from the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations and the United Jewish Communities, and the Finkle Award of the New York Board of Rabbis.</i><br /><br />(That's from his website,<br />http://www.jewishideas.org/about)<br /><br />Is there any Charedi authority of similar marks of mainstream reverence - viz., RCA and OU honors - that makes such statements as you purport?Yosef Gavriel Bechhoferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264311760560329892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-46582192714759042452010-04-29T22:22:11.609-04:002010-04-29T22:22:11.609-04:00Well reasoned, I agree that the methodology Rabbi ...Well reasoned, I agree that the methodology Rabbi Angel employs is often subjective and not convincing to those of us who don't already share his views.Rabbi Joshua Maroofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12585369620887846940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-80608156336220783882010-04-29T08:08:55.284-04:002010-04-29T08:08:55.284-04:00Limited anaylsis of subjects to fit one's agen...Limited anaylsis of subjects to fit one's agenda is an error both sides of the Orthodox spectrum make. Rav Sliffkin recently reviewed a book out of the Chareidi community which similarly twisted, omitted and adjusted history and Torah to reach a pre-determined point based on the author's personal agenda. I would therefore suggest that what Rav Angel is doing is not something unique or special but just part of a trend, albeit from a different side of the spectrum.<br /><br />There is always a balance between faith and reason that a person must sustain and this balance is unique to each individual. Rav Dessler, zt"l, famously talks about the nekudas habechira which is unique in each person depending on his level of spiritual achievement. The balance between faith and reason would be similar. Some people need rational explanations for everything, absolutely everything. Others can accept any statement, however outlandish to others, as fact based on faith. Listen, at some point Avraham Avinu was telling people about an invisible all-powerful God who was the real power in the universe as opposed to the idols they were worshipping and for decades he had only his faith to sustain his belief, no actual proof. On the other hand, there is a reason most important teshuvos run several pages in length, because there must be a rational way the law is determined in various situations. <br /><br />For folks on the left fringe of Orthodoxy, there is a danger that those things which are not rational to their minds will be jettisoned from Judaism. Tell them the entire Torah was given at Har Sinai and they'll find ways around it. On the other hand, those on the right fringe will scoff at valid scientific facts if it contradicts their beliefs, like spontaneously generating lice or the sun revolving around the Earth. Neither approach is satisfactory in that they deny reality which demands a combination of both reason and faith.Garnel Ironhearthttp://garnelironheart.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.com