tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post5717738348574276566..comments2024-03-25T09:43:27.402-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: GR"A on kiddush before ma'arivChaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-77809446499452190742013-05-22T08:19:08.466-04:002013-05-22T08:19:08.466-04:00A little late to be jumping on this thread, but ju...A little late to be jumping on this thread, but just in case anybody's still reading, I'll offer a few comments:<br /><br />I've been doing this (kiddush before maariv) fairly often. I'll go to maariv after the main course (there are those who stay home and "keep the se'udah going" as far as hilchos berachos are concerned), and after maariv, we eat dessert (including the mandatory kezayis) and say Birkas haMazon.<br /><br />As for the Gr"a, one of the mefareshim that I saw on Maaseh Rav (I forget who) says that what the Gr"a really meant was that one shouldn't rely on kiddush *as* one's kabbalas Shabbos, but should rather be mekabel Shabbos some other way first before reciting kiddush. The "standard" way to do this was (before the universal adoption of the "kabbalas Shabbos" service) by davening maariv, but if we are mekabel Shabbos some other way before kiddush (e.g. by saying Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbos), then the Gr"a's concern would not apply.<br /><br />As for those who don't have the option of easily davening both mincha and maariv betzibbur without running into the contradiction, and who hold that tefilah betzibbur is not a valid reason for engaging in the contradiction: the suggestion was offered to daven mincha without a minyan. The assumption was that if one can only daven one of the tefilos with a minyan, better that it should be maariv, since this is a tefilah of Shabbos. But given the lesser status of maariv, is this really true? Perhaps one should daven mincha with the tzibbur at 7:00, and then daven maariv at home after (or during) the se'udah?<br /><br />-- D.C.D.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00444398343324530769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-23756592328640979252013-05-22T08:15:57.979-04:002013-05-22T08:15:57.979-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.D.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00444398343324530769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-20743475003362349842011-06-29T13:04:18.246-04:002011-06-29T13:04:18.246-04:00ITS NOT IN MASSAH RAV BUT ITS IN THE GRA SIDDUR
-A...ITS NOT IN MASSAH RAV BUT ITS IN THE GRA SIDDUR<br />-AMSHINOVERAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-51587783492025187382011-06-28T19:15:20.137-04:002011-06-28T19:15:20.137-04:00Rabbi j Marouf is correct. I found a cd of rabbi s...Rabbi j Marouf is correct. I found a cd of rabbi sacks of Passiac nj where he discusses this Gra and he feels the source is THAT Rambam that RJM quotes. He says the sevara is that the chatzee lcham is only to be done after the chatzee laHashem. (Based on several gemaras)AMSHINOVERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07680072149053035110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-53880174627583479922010-08-13T18:19:38.654-04:002010-08-13T18:19:38.654-04:00can anyone give a source for the gra in maaseh rav...can anyone give a source for the gra in maaseh rav? I don't see it there.<br />Thanks<br />AdamAdamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04388758040641939590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-40938059156104353972010-05-27T13:31:40.173-04:002010-05-27T13:31:40.173-04:00My thoughts are running to the ephemeral nature of...My thoughts are running to the ephemeral nature of probability, and asserting that a probability rov is not a valid halachic rov unless it is a rov b'teva - which is really something else.Yosef Gavriel Bechhoferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264311760560329892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-9062493213845498812010-05-27T11:31:59.774-04:002010-05-27T11:31:59.774-04:00>>>perhaps kol kavua k'mechtza al mec...>>>perhaps kol kavua k'mechtza al mechtza dami has something to do with the "Monty Hall Problem"<br /><br />I don't see it. What do yo mean?<br /><br />>>>I presume qabbalas Shabbos... would be before dinner in this plan?<br /><br />Yes.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-4301017705091519582010-05-27T09:33:57.027-04:002010-05-27T09:33:57.027-04:00This may help (siman 46):
http://www.hebrewbooks.o...This may help (siman 46):<br /><a rel="nofollow">http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15107&hilite=d623c4b3-f194-43dd-bc10-b818c3f696e5&st=%D7%A7%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A2&pgnum=92</a>.Yosef Gavriel Bechhoferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264311760560329892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-44198776714213423192010-05-27T09:31:53.545-04:002010-05-27T09:31:53.545-04:00On a totally different note, it struck me yesterda...On a totally different note, it struck me yesterday that perhaps <i>kol kavua k'mechtza al mechtza dami</i> has something to do with the "Monty Hall Problem" <a rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem</a> <a rel="nofollow">http://www.marilynvossavant.com/articles/gameshow_print.html?t=64</a> - but I can't articulate it. Can you help me out by either explaining why I'm right or why I'm wrong?Yosef Gavriel Bechhoferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10264311760560329892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-71486379855030288772010-05-27T09:23:18.769-04:002010-05-27T09:23:18.769-04:00I presume qabbalas Shabbos, which minhag has cause...I presume qabbalas Shabbos, which minhag has caused to be the actual qabbalah of Shabbos, would be before dinner in this plan?<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-63081358914919879212010-05-27T09:12:08.209-04:002010-05-27T09:12:08.209-04:00RJM -- So why discuss it only with respect to ma&#...RJM -- So why discuss it only with respect to ma'ariv and not as a general rule of all seudos/tefilos? Why not simply quote the Rambam? <br /><br />Anonymous -- if the intent was that you must eat a k'zayis after tzeis, why not say exactly that. Why talk about kiddush before or after ma'ariv? <br /><br />Just to summarize: I would say yesh lachkor whether this GR"A is a din in kiddush or a din in tefilas ma'ariv, and I don't understand how it works either way. RJM and Anon, you both are suggesting variations of it being a din in seudas Shabbos, but the wording bothers me.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-4338442175173188882010-05-26T23:47:42.386-04:002010-05-26T23:47:42.386-04:00i mean maybe tefilah first b/c if you eat first th...i mean maybe tefilah first b/c if you eat first theres a chashash youll become drunk and cant daven.<br />on a side note, there usually is a technical problem in the sense that you need to eat a kzayis after tzais and usually the maariv minyanim are at tzais.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-38749088352851244402010-05-26T23:37:08.184-04:002010-05-26T23:37:08.184-04:00R' Chaim,
I remember hearing from a source in...R' Chaim,<br /><br />I remember hearing from a source in "Brisk" - either in the name of R' Chaim or "the Rav", that the basis of the shitta of the Gra is the Rambam, who describes the order of Shabbat as tefillah-seudah-tefillah-seudah-tefillah-seudah, in other words, Arvit then Seudat Halayla, Shaharit/Musaf then Seudat Hayom, Minha then Seudah Shelisheet.Rabbi Joshua Maroofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12585369620887846940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-80433451665865442672010-05-26T22:05:39.242-04:002010-05-26T22:05:39.242-04:00B, I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable. Tha...B, I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable. That wasn't my intent.<br /><br />The fact that it's not obvious in my reading and writing is a huge tribute to my Mom <i>shetichyeh</i>.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-79089148377204082322010-05-26T22:05:38.469-04:002010-05-26T22:05:38.469-04:00B, I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable. Tha...B, I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable. That wasn't my intent.<br /><br />The fact that it's not obvious in my reading and writing is a huge tribute to my Mom <i>shetichyeh</i>.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-19020493424460373432010-05-26T21:53:48.503-04:002010-05-26T21:53:48.503-04:00Right. I wasn't thinking. I mixed up the stor...Right. I wasn't thinking. I mixed up the stories of David when he was running from Avshalom and considered acting as if he had become an oveid Avoda Zara with the story of Moshe Rabbeinu's grandson.<br /><br />And I doubly feel like a fool for having sniped at the Qs. Having read Micha's posts, articles, and comments, I could never imagine that he might suffer from anything that could interfere with either reading or writing at the highest level.Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-56658432993909810502010-05-26T18:40:31.855-04:002010-05-26T18:40:31.855-04:00But i do agree with the Q THINGBut i do agree with the Q THINGAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-38358852863578202632010-05-26T18:39:18.877-04:002010-05-26T18:39:18.877-04:00B in case you are not Kidding, it was Moshe Rabben...B in case you are not Kidding, it was Moshe Rabbenu who said it and his grandson misunderstood it and said what you did.<br />Moshe said forever to do an AVODAH SH'HE ZARA LCHA a type of work that is strange in that you are not used to doing it, and his Grandson ended up being a priest for Avodah Zarah and was Punished for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-10728934912872667992010-05-26T18:22:20.720-04:002010-05-26T18:22:20.720-04:00If Hillel dropped his leading hei's to imitate...If Hillel dropped his leading hei's to imitate his rabbeim (who were raised speaking Greek), I am obligated to use my "q"s for quph.<br /><br />But in truth, I do it because dyslexia makes spelling hard enough. However, if I force my head to think algorithmically, it's easier. Can't explain why, just saying it does. So, I map ches, khaf/kaf, and quf accordingly, making each letter unique and thus not using the skills I am weaker in as heavily.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-12886208771226017802010-05-26T18:09:26.556-04:002010-05-26T18:09:26.556-04:00I know that "be'ahd pas lechem yifsha gav...I know that "be'ahd pas lechem yifsha gaver." I know that David Hamelech said it is better to be a "Komer le'Avoda Zara" rather than to accept charity. I know that Shaul Lieberman was a great scholar of Torah. I also know when further discussion would be fruitless. Mainly, I was hoping that you would be shaken up enough to forget to use that maddening 'q'.Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1028716928819245912010-05-26T16:20:50.874-04:002010-05-26T16:20:50.874-04:00I gave you the info -- that RJL was both a talmid ...I gave you the info -- that RJL was both a talmid of R' Gustman and chair of halakhah at YCT -- to let you decide. A few years back, he would have been "(talmid of R' Gustman who writes for the Chofetz Chaim foundation)". He also has a complete peirush to the Y-mi, and I don't know what other manuscripts of his sit in notebooks in his closet. You may be trying to deduce too much about the individual from your mental image of his employer. <br /><br />And even if he were a meiqil or whatever it is you think is wrong with halakhah at YCT, the issue here isn't pesaq. It's not like he told anyone else to follow suit. It's the hanhagah of someone who knows every shitah we discussed, and then some.<br /><br />OTOH, who do you think Maharat Hurwitz learned re'iyos from?<br /><br />As I said, I just reported what an very informed rebbe-chaver does, and let you decide how to weight it. Your "who the hell" (I am to forgive "unintended connotations" of that phrase? really?) was exactly the kind of judgmentalism I was trying to avoid.<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-60747926321638331162010-05-26T16:10:05.192-04:002010-05-26T16:10:05.192-04:00Ruba deRuba hold there's no "chiyuv"...Ruba deRuba hold there's no "chiyuv" of tefilla betzibbur. It's just a way of helping your tefillos get through. That's why, as we see in the Gemara and Tosfos in numerous places, the shuls were far more crowded on Shabbos than the rest of the week.<br /><br />By the way, when I mentioned what I was told they do in Winnipeg, I was tald they are also not mekabel Shabbos until long after Maariv and Kiddush, which is even more surprising.<br /><br />Micha, please forgive any unintended connotations of my question, but who the hell cares what a posek at YCT thinks about anything?Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-83865000216121337512010-05-26T10:33:08.019-04:002010-05-26T10:33:08.019-04:00>>>Isn't ignoring the Gra's chidd...>>>Isn't ignoring the Gra's chiddush better<br /><br />That's a value judgment which depends on how seriously you take the GR"A. Other poskim do disagree (e.g. Ah"S) so unless you are makpid to follow the GR"A, it's a non-issue. That being said, I would love (no pun inteneded) to hear R' Love's take on the GR"A. <br /><br />Considering the concerns you mention such as shalom bayis, listening to your kids parsha sheet, etc., if you can't get an early Friday afternoon mincha, maybe the best option is to daven mincha without a minyan and make early shabbos (the Emek Bracha writes that tefilah b'tzibur is a nice ething to do, but it's not a chiyuv). Just throwing out the idea -- you can check with a posek if that works. I would be more inclined to entertain this approach to avoid the tartei d'sarei, not just to be choshesh for a GR"A that everyone has problems with.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-49247645047649544642010-05-26T09:36:58.130-04:002010-05-26T09:36:58.130-04:00Even assuming we establish what problem the Gra ha...Even assuming we establish what problem the Gra had with maariv after qiddush...<br /><br />Isn't ignoring the Gra's chiddush better than relying on the Mishnah Berurah and Qetzos's limud zekhus?<br /><br />(FWIW, this splitting of davening is R' Jack Love's [talmid of R' Gustman, chair of the halakhah dept at YCT] usual practice. I didn't know the issue in the Gra to ask him about it.)<br /><br />However, for the hamon am of professionals and businessmen... Why are we in this boat? Presumably because the boss would object to our leaving in time for a pre-pelag minchah. So, we're talking about someone whose minchah minyan will be at 7pm. Say he gets home by 7:20. Licht benching is 8pm in NY this week. Maariv will therefore be something around 8:40. 80 minutes for a se'udah. When do you ask the kids the questions their rebbes put on their parashah sheets?<br /><br />-michamicha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-82808272367054120002010-05-26T09:24:55.635-04:002010-05-26T09:24:55.635-04:00I am not sure what you mean -- how are you connect...I am not sure what you mean -- how are you connecting that din to here? ThanksChaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.com