tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post8507574855636327758..comments2024-03-28T21:21:02.777-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: the miracle of seeing miraclesChaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-28456563174228126322011-05-12T13:57:52.733-04:002011-05-12T13:57:52.733-04:00chaim b.: "Are you suggesting Avraham Avinu w...<b>chaim b.:</b> "<i>Are you suggesting Avraham Avinu was guilty of trickery</i>""??<br /><br />So, what do you call him leading the Egyptians to believe Sarah wasn't his wife, and receiving gifts for her being taken into Pharaoh's house ?<br /><br />Regarding <i>Avraham Avinu</i> being beyond reproach( which you seem to infer in your question), here's what Ramban had to say about him( in his commentary to 12:10):<br />ודע כי אברהם אבינו <b>חטא חטא גדול בשגגה</b> שהביא אשתו הצדקת במכשול עוון מפני פחדו פן יהרגוהו, והיה לו לבטוח בשם שיציל אותו ואת אשתו ואת כל אשר לו, כי יש באלוהים כוח לעזור ולהציל. גם יציאתו מן הארץ, שנצטווה עליה בתחילה, מפני הרעב, <b>עוון אשר חטא</b>, כי האלוהים ברעב יפדנו ממות. ועל המעשה הזה נגזר על זרעו הגלות בארץ מצרים ביד פרעה. במקום המשפט שמה הרשע והחטאTamirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-30285039332032292732011-05-12T13:28:54.615-04:002011-05-12T13:28:54.615-04:00( As my first try got lost somehow, I'll try a...( As my first try got lost somehow, I'll try again:)<br /><br /><b>Anonymous:</b> "<i>--because to deal crookedly with<br />the crooked is to play straight<br />(Shmuel2 22:27)</i>";<br /><br />Except for maybe the <i>Mesudat Siyon</i>, which parallels it with <i>'Iqesh</i>, I haven't seen <i>Titapal</i>( or it's <i>Tehilim</i> 18:27 equivalent: <i>Titpatal</i>) given as "deal <b>crookedly</b>"( I've seen it translated as: "show yourself subtle", "... froward", "... shrewd", <i>etc.</i>). Also, the two places in the Talmud( <i>Baba Batra</i> 123a and <i>Megilah</i> 13b), that bring the <i>Pasuq</i>, it is to justify <i>Ya'aqov 'Avinu</i> acting cunningly with <i>Lavan haRasha'</i>, but to the best of my knowledge, he never dealt crookedly with <i>Lavan</i>( especially not in the incident brought in those Talmudic passages).<br /><br /><b>Anonymous:</b> "<i>--because of words found a few<br />pesukim before those cited, in <br />20:12, as to "sister"(&Rashi there)</i>"<br /><br />I'm not sure what you're getting at.Tamirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-57197660284209374352011-05-12T12:29:25.585-04:002011-05-12T12:29:25.585-04:00"The thwarting of Bilam and Balak's evil ..."The thwarting of Bilam and Balak's evil plan was miraculous. No one in Bnei Yisrael would have known about it had Moshe not revealed it as part of Torah.'<br /><br />An essential part of the miracle was that its occurrence was communicated via prophecy to Moshe Rabbeinu.Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-81492279205106378702011-05-10T21:31:37.102-04:002011-05-10T21:31:37.102-04:00עשה לך רב. Everyone's got to have a poseik to...עשה לך רב. Everyone's got to have a poseik to whom he defers in questions that he's not qualified to answer- especially when it comes to emotional issues like this, when it is so very hard to make a decision that is not post facto rationalization of an emotional response.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-29167329940185922312011-05-10T18:53:42.395-04:002011-05-10T18:53:42.395-04:00>>>Why would those claims be false
Are y...>>>Why would those claims be false<br /><br />Are you suggesting Avraham Avinu was guilty of trickery??<br /><br />>>>Relying on the psak of gedolim may not be the ultimate defense. But it's the only game in town.<br /><br />So how do you choose whether to follow the teachings of the Satmar Rebbe, Rav Kook, RYBS, or R' Elchanan, all of which qualify as gedolim in my book, yet each of which had something very different to say about the relationship between modern zionism and Torah?<br />Do you mean that so long as you can find some shita from someone important to hang your hat on you are exempt from any din v'cheshbon after that? <br />To be honest I don't know where you draw the line between personal responsibility and deference to the authority, but don't you think there has to be elements of both in play?<br /><br />>>>If miracles are designed to get our positive attention<br /><br />The thwarting of Bilam and Balak's evil plan was miraculous. No one in Bnei Yisrael would have known about it had Moshe not revealed it as part of Torah.chaim b.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-87794132824435755402011-05-10T13:34:57.041-04:002011-05-10T13:34:57.041-04:00(having been quietly confronted,
after turning off...(having been quietly confronted,<br />after turning off the pc, by the<br />mishna's simple phrase, "shomeiah <br />OOmoseef"...)<br />>>> "Why would those claims be false?"<br />--because to deal crookedly with<br />the crooked is to play straight<br />(Shmuel2 22:27);<br />--because of words found a few<br />pesukim before those cited, in <br />20:12, as to "sister"(&Rashi there)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-9727919589311287742011-05-10T12:45:35.802-04:002011-05-10T12:45:35.802-04:00If miracles are designed to get our positive atten...If miracles are designed to get our positive attention (what else might they they be for?), isn't it likely that we are designed to detect miracles? Being able to receive the signals doesn't always stop us from ignoring them or explaining them away or putting them into some other category of phenomenon. Also, some people perceive non-miracles (e.g., the Mets' World Series victory in 1969) as miracles.Bob Millernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-74274471318099299482011-05-10T11:22:00.108-04:002011-05-10T11:22:00.108-04:00Without belaboring the relevance to inyana d'y...Without belaboring the relevance to inyana d'yoma, I'm not qualified to pasken more than elementary questions in either Eiruvin or Taharas hamishpacha. I have the good sense to know when and to whom to defer.<br /><br />Relying on the psak of gedolim may not be the ultimate defense. But it's the only game in town.Eliezer Eisenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16036989084122930226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-69890058052862762162011-05-10T08:50:26.070-04:002011-05-10T08:50:26.070-04:00" ... no one falsely claimed that Avraham got..." ... <i>no one falsely claimed that Avraham got Pharoah's gifts through trickery; no one falsely claimed the gifts were given in error</i>".<br /><br />Why would those claims be false ?<br /><br />" ... <i>and Avraham's prayers and forgiveness which earned Pharoah a reprieve</i>".<br /><br />How do you know <i>Avraham</i> prayed for <i>Par'oh</i> ?<br />As far as I know, only regarding <i>Avimelekh</i> does it say that <i>Avraham</i> prayed for him( <a href="http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0120.htm#17" rel="nofollow">Bereshit 20:17</a>), and the case there was somewhat different from this one.<br /><br />Regarding <i>Inyana deYoma</i>:<br />Personally, I don't think that the problem is one of not recognizing the miracle( at least in the sense of 'a highly improbable occurrence') that has taken place, but rather, is one of it not fitting how people believe events should have unfolded, and what the result should have been.Tamirnoreply@blogger.com