tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post8895259575555712505..comments2024-03-28T21:21:02.777-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: who were Eldad and Meidad?Chaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-59339633274299783692010-06-10T12:48:55.776-04:002010-06-10T12:48:55.776-04:00Thank you for the mareh mekomos!Thank you for the mareh mekomos!Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-41989637448532375952010-06-08T17:09:11.021-04:002010-06-08T17:09:11.021-04:00Sorry I came into the game so late; I'm very i...Sorry I came into the game so late; I'm very interested in seeing what RC"K wrote in Siach Yitzchok, but hope to add a little until then. (I was thinking about writing about these issues this year, but still might next year; If I do, this discussion will help.)<br /><br />1) There is actually a 4th opinion (Midrash Esfa, quoted by Yalkut Shimoni) that both Eldad and Meidad were from the Tribe of Binyamin (Elitzafan was not).<br /><br />2) Toldos Yitzchok (R' Yitchok Karo, the Beis Yosef's uncle, quotes the half-brothers from Amram as being a "kabbala from the early Nevi'im," and bypasses the question of HaKesav VeHaKabbala by saying that Amram was told by Moshe that HKBH will (in the future) prohibit marrying an aunt, so Amram divorced Yocheved. If this information was gleaned at the sneh, only one more year is gained. If, however, it was deduced by Moshe years earlier (the way Avraham figured out the Torah), there would be plenty of time.<br /><br />3) I am also puzzled at why it was say "brothers of Aharon" rather than of Moshe. Perhaps this was done to avoid misinterpreting the term "brother" as being "brothers in prophecy" (since they all prophesied "in the camp" w/o prior preparation), although "from the father" minimizes the chance of gthinking it meant anything other than literally brother.<br /><br />4) Whatever answer you give to explain how Amram could marry his aunt coulds be given to explain how he could remarry Yoecheved after she had been married to Elitzafan.<br /><br />5) Kli Yakar says that the reason Shevet Levi had so far fewer people in the census (in Bamidbar) was because they all followed Amram's lead and divorced their wives. This means (a) they were divorced for much longer than 3 months, or there wouldn't have been such a discrepancy, and (b) only Shevet Levi followed his lead, so Elitzafan wasn't going against anyone else, as most didn't divorce their wives.<br /><br />I hope this added to the discussion.Dov Kramerhttp://www.RabbiDMK.posterous.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-19504608608000524812010-06-02T12:31:46.356-04:002010-06-02T12:31:46.356-04:00MMHD, the view that Amram is their father interpre...MMHD, the view that Amram is their father interprets the names to stress that they were not born of a marriage to an aunt. So it does not really make sense to stress that if he remained married to Yocheved while married to their mother.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-67229581384022472332010-06-01T19:21:13.372-04:002010-06-01T19:21:13.372-04:00MY mistake, Abaye, or whichever Amora it was, marr...MY mistake, Abaye, or whichever Amora it was, married a few hunder women at once so that he could provide for them. It would be interesting because Abaye was a descendent of Eli HaKohen, and, therefore, a descendent of Amram.MMHDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-52411117092348927602010-06-01T19:15:13.703-04:002010-06-01T19:15:13.703-04:00What I meant by "the whole thing" was be...What I meant by "the whole thing" was between myself and the author, not all the other De'ot that I didn't see until after I posted. I apologize for the misunderstanding.<br />Also, who says that he couldn't mary another wife while Moshe was out for so long? We are only told that he died (according to eh Midrash in Shemot) towards the end. Saying that Yocheved predeceased him is entirely pointless: even today, except for Ashkenazim, a man is <i> permitted</i> to have more than one wife. So who cares if she's still alive? He could also have separated/remarried two wives at the same time... Abaye (or one of the other Amoraim) did it, and he was a descendent of Aharon ben Amram.<br />But in light of al the other De'ot, I we'll have to wait for Eliyahu to enlighten us.MMHDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-78485288741804899802010-06-01T08:29:26.660-04:002010-06-01T08:29:26.660-04:00It would not "resolve the whole thing." ...It would not "resolve the whole thing." As Tamir pointed out, some identify eldad and Meidad as individuals from different families. And for the half brother of Moshe, there is the opinion that attributes them to Yocheved and another opionion that identifies them as sons of Amram. Saying that Amram had 2 wives at the same time would create a conflict with the well-known midrash that he publicly divorced Yocheved when the decree to kill baby boys came out. Miriam was the one who convinced him that his causing no girls to be born either was worse. If he had 2 wives, he would have had to separate from both then. It is, actually, easier to say that Yocheved predeceased him (likely she was older, given that she was from the earlier generation) and that he then married another wife and had more children. Still, the way Hakthav Vekabala presents it, he chose to divorce Yocheved and marry another because marriage to an aunt became forbidden.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-54057222664327952472010-06-01T07:01:44.918-04:002010-06-01T07:01:44.918-04:00I don't see why we can't just say that Amr...I don't see why we can't just say that Amram had two wives back in Mitrzayim... It would resolve the whole thing.MMHD - Dov's Successorsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-7187143538471548172010-06-01T03:03:27.895-04:002010-06-01T03:03:27.895-04:00... Ksav v'Kabbalah quotes that a certain scho...... <i>Ksav v'Kabbalah quotes that a certain scholar (<b>unnamed</b>) sent a letter to Rav Amram Gaon saying</i> ...<br /><br />The 'Ksav v'Kabbalah', and, for that matter, the <i>Mincha Belulah</i>( starting <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21718&st=&pgnum=287" rel="nofollow">here</a>, the last two lines of the page) may not name the "certain scholar", but <i>Da'at Zeqenim</i>( lower right column <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19128&st=&pgnum=150" rel="nofollow">here</a>, seven lines from the start of "<i>vaYaros haNa'ar Ze Gershom</i>") and <i>Hadar Zeqenim</i>( <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14033&st=&pgnum=111" rel="nofollow">here</a>, left column, <i>Dibur haMatchil</i>: <i>Eldad uMeidad</i>) do name him as R. Hilel( ר' הלל).<br />Also Shlomo Balzer's <i>Sha'arei Tziyon</i>( starting <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=28249&st=&pgnum=71" rel="nofollow">here</a>) speculates on the identity of said R. Hilel.<br /><br /><b>Chaim B.</b>( <a href="http://divreichaim.blogspot.com/2010/05/who-were-eldad-and-meidad.html?showComment=1275326571617#c386521259157827068" rel="nofollow">1:22 PM</a>)<b>:</b> ... <i>You have to say <b>midrashos chalukos</b>, that there are different views.</i><br /><br />If you want <i>Midrashot Chaluqot</i>, <i>Da'at Zeqenim</i>( also <i>Hadar Zeqenim</i>, without giving the source) also mentions <i>Midrash Tanchuma</i>( <a rel="nofollow">here</a>, fith line from the top of the page) who gives <i>Eldad</i> and <i>Meidad</i> as <i>Elidad ben Kislon</i> of <a href="http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0434.htm#21" rel="nofollow">Binyamin</a> and <i>Qemu'el ben Shiftan</i> of <a href="http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0434.htm#24" rel="nofollow">Efrayim</a>.Tommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07110984901774311950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-22023290681922477182010-05-31T22:51:01.754-04:002010-05-31T22:51:01.754-04:00you also might want to see daas zekanim/chizkuni t...you also might want to see daas zekanim/chizkuni that takes the apporach the eldad and maidad were bnei amram and not bnei yocheved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-16482905115128684462010-05-31T22:48:28.909-04:002010-05-31T22:48:28.909-04:00its in the sefer entitled chelek alef/beis and lik...its in the sefer entitled chelek alef/beis and like i said its in the section on the rambams hakdama to mishneh torah. i dont have it with me but its on the left page as opposed to the right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-57437044090125048712010-05-31T20:04:19.788-04:002010-05-31T20:04:19.788-04:00which chelek (or should I say heleq) of the siach ...which chelek (or should I say heleq) of the siach hasadeh?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-10796072097342864272010-05-31T18:32:37.395-04:002010-05-31T18:32:37.395-04:00I have to say The Scholarship of the readers of th...I have to say The Scholarship of the readers of this blog is above and beyond on any random topic everyones got Mareh Mekomos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-87334048743247030712010-05-31T17:32:31.064-04:002010-05-31T17:32:31.064-04:00r chaim kanievsky discusses all these questions in...r chaim kanievsky discusses all these questions in siach hasadeh in his section on hakdamah to rambam going through the mesorah.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-33999793084524308162010-05-31T14:43:40.669-04:002010-05-31T14:43:40.669-04:00http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32832...http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32832&st=&pgnum=160Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-67646937547275244662010-05-31T14:00:11.373-04:002010-05-31T14:00:11.373-04:00Fair enough, may I ask the source of the כתב והקבל...Fair enough, may I ask the source of the כתב והקבלה? I'd like to see it inside.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00155215480666557288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-3865212591578270682010-05-31T13:22:51.617-04:002010-05-31T13:22:51.617-04:00I should have included that in the post -- my wife...I should have included that in the post -- my wife also asked from the Midrash that Hashem spoke in Amram's voice because he was dead. You have to say midrashos chalukos, that there are different views.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-52595309955093669732010-05-31T10:26:30.382-04:002010-05-31T10:26:30.382-04:00P.S. He spent seven days with Hashem by the Sineh ...P.S. He spent seven days with Hashem by the Sineh debating and <i> sitting Shiva. </i>Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00155215480666557288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-43136232332955083952010-05-31T10:00:05.403-04:002010-05-31T10:00:05.403-04:00I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong with the ...I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong with the interpretation about Amram: he died well before Matan Torah.<br />Look at the Mefarshim on when Hashem approached Moshe for the first time in Midyan: it says that Hashem spoke in Amrams voice to hint to Moshe that his father had died and Aharon had taken over.<br />-MMHDUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00155215480666557288noreply@blogger.com