tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post1128780320195942559..comments2024-03-25T09:43:27.402-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: kol isha -- kri'as haTorah and daveningChaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-1340289374712886232012-06-10T09:34:30.601-04:002012-06-10T09:34:30.601-04:00Such was the minhag in Ashkenaz. For the most famo...Such was the minhag in Ashkenaz. For the most famous source of that statement, see Sridei Eish (old print, Chelek Daled Siman 77)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-22152924453654465792010-09-28T15:32:07.159-04:002010-09-28T15:32:07.159-04:00And second part of allowing sources:
Ovadiah Yose...And second part of allowing sources:<br /><br />Ovadiah Yosef, Me’or Yisrael, I, Megilla 4a, s.v. “beTosfot d”h Nashim,” p. 251, and<br />Megilla 23a, s.v. “Tanu Rabbanan, haKol,” p. 279; R. Ovadiah Yosef, Halikhot Olam, II,<br />Ekev, sec. 2, note 2, p. 74; R. Ovadiah Yosef, MeShiurei Maran haRishon leTsiyyon,<br />16E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-20849510921003554372010-09-28T15:31:27.277-04:002010-09-28T15:31:27.277-04:00First part of the allowing sources which didn'...First part of the allowing sources which didn't post:<br /><br />On the other hand, many posekim maintain that the position of the Asseret haDibrot<br />(Ba’al haIttur) does not reflect normative halakha. More specifically, women chanting<br />the Torah or Megilla with the appropriate notes (ta’amei ha-mikra) is not included in the<br />prohibition of kol be-isha erva. See: R. Jacob Hayyim Sofer, Kaf haHayyim, sec. 689,<br />no. 2; Resp. Divrei Heifets, cited by Sdei Hemed, Klalim, Ma’arekhet kuf, klal 42; R.<br />Jehiel Jacob Weinberg, Resp. Seridei Eish, II, sec. 8; R. Nahum Tsvi Kornmehl, Resp.<br />Tiferet Tsvi, II, sec. 7; R. Samuel haLevi Wosner, Resp. Shevet haLevi, III, sec. 14 – who<br />indicates that most rishonim are lenient by keriah de-mitsvah; R. Ovadiah Yosef, Yehave<br />Da’at, III, sec. 51, note, and IV, sec. 15, end of note; R. Ovadiah Yosef, Resp. Yabia<br />Omer, VIII, O.H., sec. 22, no. 10 and IX, O.H., sec. 98, no. 9, and sec. 108, no. 74; R.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-38453816034137226332010-09-28T15:27:43.427-04:002010-09-28T15:27:43.427-04:00Allowing continued:
Rabbeinu Ovadiah Yosef Shelit...Allowing continued:<br /><br />Rabbeinu Ovadiah Yosef Shelita, I, Gilyon 19, va-Yeira 5756, sec. 2, p. 73. R. Isaac<br />Yosef, Yalkut Yosef, V, Dinei Keriat Megilla, sec. 12 and notes 19 and 22, and VII, sec.<br />23, no. 11, end of note 16; R. Isaac Yosef, Yalkut Yosef, Otsar Dinim la-Isha ve-laBat,<br />sec. 24, no. 6; R. Simeon Hirari, “Kol be-Isha Erva ve-Nashim bi-Keriat Megilla”, Or<br />Torah, Adar 5731, sec 123, pp. 289-292 and Nisan 5731, sec. 148, pp. 339-343 – see<br />especially p. 341 s.v. “u-le-Or;” and R. Yehuda Herzl Henkin, Resp. Bnai Vanim, II, sec.<br />10 and III, sec. 1; Yehuda Herzl Henkin, unpublished responsum to R. Abraham-Sofer<br />Abraham, 24 Menahem Av 5761 (regarding Nishmat Avraham, V, Y.D., sec. 195, p. 76-<br />77).E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-77955837846718003672010-09-28T15:26:00.467-04:002010-09-28T15:26:00.467-04:00Sources against women singing even for megilah or ...Sources against women singing even for megilah or leading davening or even reading from the Torah:<br /><br /><br />Based on Berakhot 24a. This reason is attributed to R. Isaac ben Aba Mari, Asseret<br />haDibrot, cited by: R. Meir haMe’ili of Narvonna, Sefer haMe’orot, Megilla 19b; R.<br />Aaron ben Jacob of Lunel, Orhot Hayyim, Hilkhot Megilla uPurim, sec. 2; Kol Bo,<br />Megilla 103; R. David ben Levi of Narvonna, Sefer haMikhtam, Megilla 4a. This reason<br />is also given in Auerbach’s edition of R. Abraham Av Bet-Din, Sefer haEshkol, Hilkhot<br />Hanukka u-Purim, sec. 9. Various aharonim concur with the stringent view of Asseret<br />haDibrot, invoking “kol be-isha erva” in regard to the question of women chanting the<br />Torah or Megilla; see: R. Hayyim Palagi, Ruah Hayyim, O.H., sec. 75, no. 2; R. Hayyim<br />Palagi, Yefeh Lev, VI, O.H., sec. 282; Resp. Atsei Hayyim, I, sec. 7 (cited in R. Abraham<br />Yaffe Schlesinger, Resp. Be’er Sarim, sec. 55); R. Shlomo Yosef Elyashiv, cited in R.<br />Abraham-Sofer Abraham, Nishmat Avraham, V, Y.D., sec. 195, p. 76-77; R. Shlomo<br />Zalman Auerbach, cited in R. Abraham-Sofer Abraham, Nishmat Avraham, V, Y.D., sec.<br />195, p. 76-77 – see also Halikhot Shlomo, I, Hilkhot Tefilla, Chap. 20, sec. 11, note 20;<br />R. Eliezer Waldenberg, Resp. Tsits Eliezer, sec. 36, nos. 2 and 3; R. Nathan Gestetner,<br />Resp. leHorot Natan, I, E.H., sec. 60 and V, O.H., sec 5; R. Efraim Greenblatt, Resp.<br />Rivevot Efrayyim, I, sec. 449. See also R. Azriel Hildesheimer, Resp. R. Azriel, O.H., sec.<br />128.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-76268631603059354412010-08-16T11:04:22.924-04:002010-08-16T11:04:22.924-04:001. As long as refinement is expected of women and...1. As long as refinement is expected of women and not men, a fundamental modern problem is going unsolved. I've seen a lot of coarse behavior, and, believe me, men were often involved.<br /><br />2. If rabbonim want to wax philosphical about the total importance of self-restraint, dignity, etc., they need to put this in terms that all Jews can relate to, not only one segment that is being held out as "the problem".Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882748518758064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-6021832708281419842010-08-15T09:37:39.227-04:002010-08-15T09:37:39.227-04:00B, we don't say those qualities are not import...B, we don't say those qualities are not important -- they are why hatzne leches is mentioned specifically as one of the things Hashem want -- but they apply to all Jews, not only the female population. Rashi also mentions ayn lecha yafe min hatznius in connection to the second luchos, which were given with far less fanfare than the first. The concept is not even limited to human interactions.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-15832834662434788962010-08-13T19:41:15.591-04:002010-08-13T19:41:15.591-04:00Just a minor comment: if tzniyus is primarily to p...Just a minor comment: if tzniyus is primarily to prevent onlookers from having lewd thoughts, then great tzniyus would not make the person any better, it would just make her safe to go outdoors, it might make her safe from arayos related sins. But it wouldn't make her a great person. From the the gaon's words we see tzniyus involves refinement of character, dignity, self-respect. Why these things are so important I don't know, but evidently they are.Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-34141038879628703302010-08-13T16:18:31.965-04:002010-08-13T16:18:31.965-04:00RAM, what I am saying is that Ariella means that t...RAM, what I am saying is that Ariella means that tznius has become not just another mitzvah to keep, but THE mitzvah which is the raison d'etra and identity of a bas yisrael, just as talmud Torah is THE pinnacle of observance for a man, surpassing in value all other mitzvos combined. Shadesof last comment hits the nail on its head regarding the same. It is a philosphical notion, not a halachic one, and I've given you concrete illustrations which I don't think are defensible, unless you would like to surprise me and say they are.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-65664415617747771462010-08-13T15:50:32.806-04:002010-08-13T15:50:32.806-04:00I dislike the overemphasis on tzniyus, but the kav...I dislike the overemphasis on tzniyus, but the kavanah aspect might be able to be defended. <br /><br />I once asked, separately, Litvish and Chasdish rabbonim the question of "how to concentrate in tefilah", and received two different answers.<br /><br />The Litvishe rav gave practical suggestions, while the Chasidisher rav quoted the Zohar about "one who slays the dragon, gets the kings daughter, which is prayer"; the dragon being, IIRC, the yetzer hara.<br /><br />The issue as I see it(others, including apparently many women, have no trouble with it), is the way tzniyus is over-emphasized and the prominence given, as a way to motivate people. Yes, tzniyus might bring more kedusha, and therefore help in kavanah as per the Zohar, but there is a limit to how much you emphasize it.<br /><br />I sometimes wonder if some of the tzniyus hashkafah is being apologetic and getting away from the issue of attraction. Ie, the Ramban in Bershis, IIRC, explains why after the Etz Hadaas bodies needed to be covered, and not before. Therefore, with all of the explanations-- that Tzniyus applies to cats, as I saw in one tzniyus article(and to men) as well, and that "hatzneya leches" is a relationship with Hashem and is about more than covering knees and elbows, if you say it applies to woman more, and emphasize it so much, it *is* about attraction, otherwise why not say the same for men? The next step is that it's a raison d'etre, and if so, that can be perceieved, by some at least, as objectifying woman, that their role in life is not to attract male attention!<br /><br />If you teach tzniyus in a more balanced way, without trying to "sell" it, you simply say, yes, to an extent it's about not attracting male attention, but more importantly, it's about a relationship with Hashem(which would apply to men, and, perhaps, even to cats !), but there is no need to "market" it, and make it so all-encompassing, and therefore, it's not objectifying.Shades of Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029177164921795725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-90538985190390017202010-08-13T15:36:46.030-04:002010-08-13T15:36:46.030-04:00"Be all and end all" in the sense of ide..."Be all and end all" in the sense of identity<br /><br />??<br /><br />No, in the sense of just do this.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882748518758064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-46588527778415975542010-08-13T14:48:24.693-04:002010-08-13T14:48:24.693-04:00RAM, outside of psak, the hashkafic extermes to wh...RAM, outside of psak, the hashkafic extermes to which the pseudo-GR"A is taken are pretty remarkable. Tzniyus in modern parlance means appropriate dress. <br />A R"Y says that tzniyus absolves one from learning mussar (B's mareh makom http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13044&st=%u05dc%u05d6%u05db%u05e8%u05d9%u05dd+%u05e2%u05e1%u05e7&pgnum=124).<br />An Orthodox shul dvar Torah explains that when a woman faces temptation like finding "...it hard to say the words of a brocha properly and with clear pronunciation, especially when it comes to the after-brocha “Al Hamichyah” and Bircas Hamazon," the "innoculation" against this yetzer hara is... tznius. It is literally the panacea for all ills. Tznius, "when kept properly, is all encompassing." (http://www.toraschaimdallas.org/2008/10/tznius-is-a-womans-torah/)<br /><br />Do you really think that, for example, a teenager who wears a longer skirt than her peers has less problems concentrating on her Al haMichya? That she no longer needs the musar of her parents or teachers? And since the GR"A did address musar to his wife in his Iggeres, you mean to say that she did not dress properly? <br /><br />What the GR"A obviously had in mind was the Navi exhortation of "hatzneya leches," applicable both to men and to women, and referring to refinement of character, not sleeve or skirt length. Unfortunately, that real form of tzniyus is a lost value.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-26937551130332201402010-08-13T14:36:07.796-04:002010-08-13T14:36:07.796-04:00"Be all and end all" in the sense of ide..."Be all and end all" in the sense of identity, much the way T"T defines a man's identity. <br />(That T"T fills that roll the way other mitzvos do not is the thrust of the entire last section of Nefesh haChaim).<br /><br />It's a philosophical question, so looking at what poskim say is barking up the wrong tree.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-13193314641747564412010-08-13T13:34:58.033-04:002010-08-13T13:34:58.033-04:00Chaim B wrote, "The question you post from &#...Chaim B wrote, "The question you post from 'another standpoint' is completely different."<br /><br />My question related to Ariella's earlier implication that, to some, tznius is considered women's be-all and end-all (as opposed to a really good, necessary basis). I know of no poskim who have taken a position that extreme.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882748518758064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-43702116045846415092010-08-13T12:53:55.779-04:002010-08-13T12:53:55.779-04:00"Nonetheless, it is ia categorically differen..."Nonetheless, it is ia categorically different mitzvah from all others"<br /><br />Even in Torah, "k'neged kulam" can be over-emphasized. <br /><br />Of course, this has to do with the classic Chasdic-Misnagdic divide as well as the Mussar controversey. Nevertheless, even classic Litvacks will admit that there are 48 ways of acquiring Torah and "yiras Hashem he otzaro" as per Nefesh Hachaim, even if Torah study is viewed as the center of the picture, with everything else only surrounding it.<br /><br />So too with tzniyus. Even if, for the sake of the argument, one wants to say that Tzniyus plays a somewhat *greater* role in a woman's spirtual existence, there are still other things which are important. <br /><br />Moreover, I can imagine placing Tzniyus at the *center* can be perceived by some(everyone is different),ironically, as objectifying and even sexualizing. Even if tzniyus is a middah of the neshamah, on this world, it plays out on a level of the here and now, which reduces a woman's role and raison detere to being hidden from men, or to be hidden in the presence of God("hatznea leches") in every which way, than as a person with a brain.<br /><br />I imagine making the Gra into a hashkafa is used to motivate; but in cases where it's not motivating, I see no reason why not to use a different approach.Shades of Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03029177164921795725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-26396187297714363342010-08-13T12:15:04.422-04:002010-08-13T12:15:04.422-04:00That question mis-frames the issue. Talmud Torah ...That question mis-frames the issue. Talmud Torah does not exempt one from other mitzvos. Nonetheless, it is ia categorically different mitzvah from all others. R' Chaim Volozhiner writes (Nefesh haChaim 4:30), "Even if a person were to fulfill all 613 commandments with true perfection as required... nonetheless, there is no comparison at all between the light and holiness of mitzvos and the light and holiness of Torah which manifests itself upon a person who studies it properly."<br />RC"V offers numerous sources in Chazal, Midrash, kabbalah, to support this contention. This is Lithuanian intellectual elitism in its purest form.<br /><br />The issue is whether tzeniyus really provides this same type of same spiritual uplift, as is claimed by those who misquote the GR"A. That would be a pretty hefty claim to make and would require a solid basis of proof -- which so far seems non-existant. The question you post from "another standpoint" is completely different.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-8485501517462548942010-08-13T12:07:50.543-04:002010-08-13T12:07:50.543-04:00RAM I doubt that they say that. But Falk's ar...RAM I doubt that they say that. But Falk's argument clearly is that EVERYTHING will follow if a woman focuses on her tznius, as I quoted above. As I said, I know the RW educational emphasis on tznius for girls, and it is not a wholly positive thing. Generally, it is pushed as something that makes our groups -- that is BY girls -- better than the other group --MO girls. The standard of dress becomes a core part of the group identity. While I comply with the standards, I don't regard them as the be-all-and-end-all of Jewessness (that's deliberate).Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-46580784137410235112010-08-13T11:58:30.582-04:002010-08-13T11:58:30.582-04:00To look at this from another standpoint:
Does any...To look at this from another standpoint:<br /><br />Does any Torah authority claim that 100% tznius EXEMPTS its possessor from any other Torah obligation that person would otherwise have?<br /><br />For example, Would practicing chessed become optional? Would being a proper parent or spouse become optional? Loving all Jews? Saying berachos?Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11088882748518758064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-44021828105747330092010-08-12T19:12:38.338-04:002010-08-12T19:12:38.338-04:00Watch your mail next week.Watch your mail next week.bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-51637848056987865502010-08-12T18:41:28.894-04:002010-08-12T18:41:28.894-04:00I only said, categorically, that it does not exist...I only said, categorically, that it does not exist in the Gemara. I also said I had my doubts about the GRA making that wholesale equation of tznius keneged kulam, as well.<br /><br />Anyway, as I believe in checking what sources say rather than speculating on them as possibilities, I did crack open the Wizard of Oz's tome (we got it from a neighbor who thought it was not for her) to the pages that Chaim told me was missing from the text available online.<br /> On p. 36, Falk begins a section C. entitled "What Torah Does for men, tznius does for women." <br />1.Tznius is an antidote to theyetzer horah. On p. 37, he says, "a woman, whose function is to establish and manage a home and family, does not have Torah learning to counteract her yetzer horah." He goes on to claim the power of tznius is such that "when kept properly is all encompassing. It gives so much kedusha and strength to the woman that she is capable of outwitting the yetzer horah and withstanding its relentless pressure. "<br /><br />On p. 37 he refers to the GRA and quotes the same close to the letter to his mother that Chaim quoted above, "My dear mother, I know that you do not rquire my mussar, for I am aware that you ara a tzanua." It is Falk's own huge leap of logic that brings him to conclude from that phrase alone, " He was convinced, that just as being steeped in Torah enables a man to combat his 'lower self', so too, being steeped in tznius enables a woman to be victorious in the same way." <br /><br />It is proven, thus, that the GRA never said what people say he did, and that people confuse what Falk argues for with what the GRA actually said. <br /><br />He does have a bit more to hang his hat on when quoting the Chazon Ish, but that relies on a secondary source: <br />Falk p.42: "It is appropriate in this context to quote from the life story of Rebbetzin Karelitz a.h. the mother of Hagaon Harav Nissim Karelitz shlita ('Silence is Thy Praise' p. 106)<br />"'How much the Chazon Ish valued the modesty of a Jewish woman as perhaps best evident in the response he once gave when asked, 'What can a young lady do to match the merit of young man's learning?'<br /><br />"'Let her work on her tznius!' he answered."<br /><br />Even that, though, does not exactly equate the effectiveness of tznius with that of Torah but merely suggests it as something women could occupy themselves with. I wonder a bit at this, though, because Chazal clearly said that women earn Olam Haba through the Torah learning of their husbands and sons -- not through their tznius. Perhaps this was a suggestion for a woman who was unmarried and childless.<br /><br />So what do we win, Barzilai?Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-7918306774080528992010-08-12T18:27:08.339-04:002010-08-12T18:27:08.339-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-25515000020065659232010-08-12T18:23:24.264-04:002010-08-12T18:23:24.264-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-88683534684847742872010-08-12T17:28:07.588-04:002010-08-12T17:28:07.588-04:00Thanks for the page. same stuff as quoted earlier...Thanks for the page. same stuff as quoted earlier in the comments. <br />Kind of makes you wonder, though, if the GR"A said his mother was tzanu'a and therefore didn't need his musar, what did he think of his wife to whom much of the Iggeres is directed to? And if tzniyus here means (as some take it) proper dress, does that mean Mrs. GR"A had a too low hemline? I find it hard to believe...<br /><br />As for your wager, I'll let Ariella reply, but I don't see how you can prove a quote doesn't exist. As to proving it does, you can theoretically search for it forever without ever saying mercy.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-15279698336886924372010-08-12T17:01:32.714-04:002010-08-12T17:01:32.714-04:00I didn't mean that the Gaon was a Novardoker. ...I didn't mean that the Gaon was a Novardoker. No no no no. What I meant was that even postulating the equation of women-tzniyus/men-mussar, it only means that tzniyus is like mussar, and mussar is just mussar. <br /><br />But as far as admitting anything, I would like to, and she's probably right. But I've been bushwhacked with obscure and odd Chazals too many times to be confident as to what's there, kal vachomer what's not.<br /><br />But if you'd like to make it interesting, I'd be willing to make a wager. Say three to two; she pays two if it's there, I pay three if it's not. I'm giving you good odds here, since she's probably right, and I'm sure you trust Ariella's good judgment, hmmm???Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-12756711892073291812010-08-12T16:55:19.843-04:002010-08-12T16:55:19.843-04:00Sorry about the link. It's on page 124 of tha...Sorry about the link. It's on page 124 of that journal.Bnoreply@blogger.com