tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post169213272947122336..comments2024-03-28T21:21:02.777-04:00Comments on Divrei Chaim: What Amon and Moav did wrongChaim B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-90768993003914737902010-08-24T19:35:50.425-04:002010-08-24T19:35:50.425-04:00My wife obviously knows Midrash better than I do. ...My wife obviously knows Midrash better than I do. Anyway, you can say that going out to greet other women is Ok if there is a purpose, but Dina was just socializing. Or maybe you can say that the Amoni and Moavi women had a heter to go to BN"Y, but Dina had no heter to leave her family (BN"Y in the literal sense) to go out to others. Maybe you can come up with some other ideas.Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-57833860443202865672010-08-24T17:49:43.427-04:002010-08-24T17:49:43.427-04:00I believe that the Midrash is quoted as saying she...I believe that the Midrash is quoted as saying she went out to see the other young women in the area.<br /><br />I had another thought on Amon and Moav and why they are considered so very culpable for not going out with food. These two nations were born of Lot who had internalized the practice of hachansos orchim from Avraham Avinu. We see in the episode when the angels come to save him and his family from Sdom that he does extend them hospitality. But that is not what he is given credit for (as he is for remaining silent about Sarah being Avrahams's wife) b/c it became part of his nature. So his descendants actually went against their nature in not going out to offer a hospitable welcome to Bnei Yisrael. For that, they are held culpable.Ariella's bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09409352047101582583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-22699085796998500862010-08-24T16:16:28.332-04:002010-08-24T16:16:28.332-04:00Where does it say that Dina when out to greet othe...Where does it say that Dina when out to greet other women davka?Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-86596592376166307902010-08-24T12:38:39.796-04:002010-08-24T12:38:39.796-04:00Chaim B. wrote, "The Ylmi assumes women can g...Chaim B. wrote, "The Ylmi assumes women can go out to meet other women."<br /><br />What then did Dinah do wrong?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-26655007206008686072010-08-24T08:46:09.079-04:002010-08-24T08:46:09.079-04:00I figured that but think about the logistics. Wha...I figured that but think about the logistics. What, on Mondays and Wednesday only the men go out and on Tuesday and Thursdays the women do? And how would the Ammonites know about this schedule?Mighty Garnel Ironhearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09571194550300367249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-7373932770154867242010-08-23T20:14:29.008-04:002010-08-23T20:14:29.008-04:00The Ylmi assumes women can go out to meet other wo...The Ylmi assumes women can go out to meet other women. It's the intermingling of the sexes, not the going out per se which is the issue (and perhaps that gufa is the point the Bavli is more stringent about, though tzarich iyun if there is a machlokes l'dina here or not.)Chaim B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02231811394447584320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20173285.post-60787594823274564472010-08-23T18:06:10.353-04:002010-08-23T18:06:10.353-04:00The Malbim starts by echoing Ramban and breaking t...The Malbim starts by echoing Ramban and breaking the condemenations into Ammon=not bringing food and Moav=Bilaam. But then he goes a step further and notes that each failing was a denial of the two middos we know Lot and his family possessed - we know Lot was into hachnasas orchim so Ammon failing to do that is worthy of criticism. We know that Lot's daughters were chaste (until that whole cave and wine thing) so the daughters of Moab going out to seduce Israel was worthy of criticsm.<br />But I have a question on the gemara you mentioned:<br />> Even if women would not come out to serve men, why, asks the Yerushalmi, did the women not come out to bring food to the women of Bnei Yisrael?<br />But if we assume that the reason the women of Moav and Ammon didn't go out in the first place was because of modesty, even had they gone out, they still would have been stymied because the Bnot Yisrael would also not have gone out to meet them!Garnel Ironheartnoreply@blogger.com