Having a
Someone commented that there was an easy solution: daven mincha early, go home, get ready for Shabbos, make kiddush, eat your meal, and then come back to shul and daven ma’ariv at the proper time. Everyone is happy -- the kids get supper at a decent hour and you avoid the contradiction in zmanei tefilah.
Only problem is that the GR”A in Ma’aseh Rav shoots this down. GR"A holds that kiddush may not be recited before ma’ariv. The proof: the gemara (Brachos 27b) writes that Rav davened ma’ariv early on erev shabbos. Asks the gemara, did Rav also say kiddush? The gemara answers by quoting Rav Nachman in the name of Shmuel that one can daven early on erev shabbos and say kiddush as well.
What exactly is the proof from this gemara? Just because Rav davened and then said kiddush does not mean that it cannot be done some other way!? The meforshim on the Ma'aseh Rav are so troubled by this issue that they suggest that perhaps the GR"A never said this chiddush in the first place (an easy solution!). You can nitpick and say that since Shmuel first repeats that once can daven early, which was never under debate, and only then tells us the chiddush that kiddush can be recited, he implies that these two facts are related and tefilah must precede kiddush. Still, far from compelling. Even if you kvetch out some diyuk in the gemara, how do you explain the lomdus? Why is it that tefilah must precede kiddush? I don’t know the answer. For the record, the Aruch haShulchan has no problem with kiddush before ma'ariv. But for those who are concerned for the GR"A's view, the very fact that the GR"A thought this chiddush was correct gives it a stamp of legitimacy, even if the proof is unclear (as noted by the meforshim on the Ma'aseh Rav).
maybe b.c of shichrus like the gemara in first perek of shabbos says
ReplyDeleteI am not sure what you mean -- how are you connecting that din to here? Thanks
ReplyDeleteEven assuming we establish what problem the Gra had with maariv after qiddush...
ReplyDeleteIsn't ignoring the Gra's chiddush better than relying on the Mishnah Berurah and Qetzos's limud zekhus?
(FWIW, this splitting of davening is R' Jack Love's [talmid of R' Gustman, chair of the halakhah dept at YCT] usual practice. I didn't know the issue in the Gra to ask him about it.)
However, for the hamon am of professionals and businessmen... Why are we in this boat? Presumably because the boss would object to our leaving in time for a pre-pelag minchah. So, we're talking about someone whose minchah minyan will be at 7pm. Say he gets home by 7:20. Licht benching is 8pm in NY this week. Maariv will therefore be something around 8:40. 80 minutes for a se'udah. When do you ask the kids the questions their rebbes put on their parashah sheets?
-micha
>>>Isn't ignoring the Gra's chiddush better
ReplyDeleteThat's a value judgment which depends on how seriously you take the GR"A. Other poskim do disagree (e.g. Ah"S) so unless you are makpid to follow the GR"A, it's a non-issue. That being said, I would love (no pun inteneded) to hear R' Love's take on the GR"A.
Considering the concerns you mention such as shalom bayis, listening to your kids parsha sheet, etc., if you can't get an early Friday afternoon mincha, maybe the best option is to daven mincha without a minyan and make early shabbos (the Emek Bracha writes that tefilah b'tzibur is a nice ething to do, but it's not a chiyuv). Just throwing out the idea -- you can check with a posek if that works. I would be more inclined to entertain this approach to avoid the tartei d'sarei, not just to be choshesh for a GR"A that everyone has problems with.
Ruba deRuba hold there's no "chiyuv" of tefilla betzibbur. It's just a way of helping your tefillos get through. That's why, as we see in the Gemara and Tosfos in numerous places, the shuls were far more crowded on Shabbos than the rest of the week.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, when I mentioned what I was told they do in Winnipeg, I was tald they are also not mekabel Shabbos until long after Maariv and Kiddush, which is even more surprising.
Micha, please forgive any unintended connotations of my question, but who the hell cares what a posek at YCT thinks about anything?
I gave you the info -- that RJL was both a talmid of R' Gustman and chair of halakhah at YCT -- to let you decide. A few years back, he would have been "(talmid of R' Gustman who writes for the Chofetz Chaim foundation)". He also has a complete peirush to the Y-mi, and I don't know what other manuscripts of his sit in notebooks in his closet. You may be trying to deduce too much about the individual from your mental image of his employer.
ReplyDeleteAnd even if he were a meiqil or whatever it is you think is wrong with halakhah at YCT, the issue here isn't pesaq. It's not like he told anyone else to follow suit. It's the hanhagah of someone who knows every shitah we discussed, and then some.
OTOH, who do you think Maharat Hurwitz learned re'iyos from?
As I said, I just reported what an very informed rebbe-chaver does, and let you decide how to weight it. Your "who the hell" (I am to forgive "unintended connotations" of that phrase? really?) was exactly the kind of judgmentalism I was trying to avoid.
-micha
I know that "be'ahd pas lechem yifsha gaver." I know that David Hamelech said it is better to be a "Komer le'Avoda Zara" rather than to accept charity. I know that Shaul Lieberman was a great scholar of Torah. I also know when further discussion would be fruitless. Mainly, I was hoping that you would be shaken up enough to forget to use that maddening 'q'.
ReplyDeleteIf Hillel dropped his leading hei's to imitate his rabbeim (who were raised speaking Greek), I am obligated to use my "q"s for quph.
ReplyDeleteBut in truth, I do it because dyslexia makes spelling hard enough. However, if I force my head to think algorithmically, it's easier. Can't explain why, just saying it does. So, I map ches, khaf/kaf, and quf accordingly, making each letter unique and thus not using the skills I am weaker in as heavily.
-micha
B in case you are not Kidding, it was Moshe Rabbenu who said it and his grandson misunderstood it and said what you did.
ReplyDeleteMoshe said forever to do an AVODAH SH'HE ZARA LCHA a type of work that is strange in that you are not used to doing it, and his Grandson ended up being a priest for Avodah Zarah and was Punished for it.
But i do agree with the Q THING
ReplyDeleteRight. I wasn't thinking. I mixed up the stories of David when he was running from Avshalom and considered acting as if he had become an oveid Avoda Zara with the story of Moshe Rabbeinu's grandson.
ReplyDeleteAnd I doubly feel like a fool for having sniped at the Qs. Having read Micha's posts, articles, and comments, I could never imagine that he might suffer from anything that could interfere with either reading or writing at the highest level.
B, I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable. That wasn't my intent.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that it's not obvious in my reading and writing is a huge tribute to my Mom shetichyeh.
-micha
B, I'm sorry for making you uncomfortable. That wasn't my intent.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that it's not obvious in my reading and writing is a huge tribute to my Mom shetichyeh.
-micha
R' Chaim,
ReplyDeleteI remember hearing from a source in "Brisk" - either in the name of R' Chaim or "the Rav", that the basis of the shitta of the Gra is the Rambam, who describes the order of Shabbat as tefillah-seudah-tefillah-seudah-tefillah-seudah, in other words, Arvit then Seudat Halayla, Shaharit/Musaf then Seudat Hayom, Minha then Seudah Shelisheet.
i mean maybe tefilah first b/c if you eat first theres a chashash youll become drunk and cant daven.
ReplyDeleteon a side note, there usually is a technical problem in the sense that you need to eat a kzayis after tzais and usually the maariv minyanim are at tzais.
RJM -- So why discuss it only with respect to ma'ariv and not as a general rule of all seudos/tefilos? Why not simply quote the Rambam?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous -- if the intent was that you must eat a k'zayis after tzeis, why not say exactly that. Why talk about kiddush before or after ma'ariv?
Just to summarize: I would say yesh lachkor whether this GR"A is a din in kiddush or a din in tefilas ma'ariv, and I don't understand how it works either way. RJM and Anon, you both are suggesting variations of it being a din in seudas Shabbos, but the wording bothers me.
I presume qabbalas Shabbos, which minhag has caused to be the actual qabbalah of Shabbos, would be before dinner in this plan?
ReplyDelete-micha
On a totally different note, it struck me yesterday that perhaps kol kavua k'mechtza al mechtza dami has something to do with the "Monty Hall Problem" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem http://www.marilynvossavant.com/articles/gameshow_print.html?t=64 - but I can't articulate it. Can you help me out by either explaining why I'm right or why I'm wrong?
ReplyDeleteThis may help (siman 46):
ReplyDeletehttp://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=15107&hilite=d623c4b3-f194-43dd-bc10-b818c3f696e5&st=%D7%A7%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A2&pgnum=92.
>>>perhaps kol kavua k'mechtza al mechtza dami has something to do with the "Monty Hall Problem"
ReplyDeleteI don't see it. What do yo mean?
>>>I presume qabbalas Shabbos... would be before dinner in this plan?
Yes.
My thoughts are running to the ephemeral nature of probability, and asserting that a probability rov is not a valid halachic rov unless it is a rov b'teva - which is really something else.
ReplyDeletecan anyone give a source for the gra in maaseh rav? I don't see it there.
ReplyDeleteThanks
Adam
Rabbi j Marouf is correct. I found a cd of rabbi sacks of Passiac nj where he discusses this Gra and he feels the source is THAT Rambam that RJM quotes. He says the sevara is that the chatzee lcham is only to be done after the chatzee laHashem. (Based on several gemaras)
ReplyDeleteITS NOT IN MASSAH RAV BUT ITS IN THE GRA SIDDUR
ReplyDelete-AMSHINOVER
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ReplyDeleteA little late to be jumping on this thread, but just in case anybody's still reading, I'll offer a few comments:
ReplyDeleteI've been doing this (kiddush before maariv) fairly often. I'll go to maariv after the main course (there are those who stay home and "keep the se'udah going" as far as hilchos berachos are concerned), and after maariv, we eat dessert (including the mandatory kezayis) and say Birkas haMazon.
As for the Gr"a, one of the mefareshim that I saw on Maaseh Rav (I forget who) says that what the Gr"a really meant was that one shouldn't rely on kiddush *as* one's kabbalas Shabbos, but should rather be mekabel Shabbos some other way first before reciting kiddush. The "standard" way to do this was (before the universal adoption of the "kabbalas Shabbos" service) by davening maariv, but if we are mekabel Shabbos some other way before kiddush (e.g. by saying Mizmor Shir leYom haShabbos), then the Gr"a's concern would not apply.
As for those who don't have the option of easily davening both mincha and maariv betzibbur without running into the contradiction, and who hold that tefilah betzibbur is not a valid reason for engaging in the contradiction: the suggestion was offered to daven mincha without a minyan. The assumption was that if one can only daven one of the tefilos with a minyan, better that it should be maariv, since this is a tefilah of Shabbos. But given the lesser status of maariv, is this really true? Perhaps one should daven mincha with the tzibbur at 7:00, and then daven maariv at home after (or during) the se'udah?
-- D.C.