Yesterday someone forwarded to me the following tweet put out by Rabbi Steven Burg, CEO of Aish haTorah:
"Just had a disappointing visit to the YU Seforim Sale. They were carding everyone for vaccinations & walking around telling people to put on masks. A reminder why the MO community has had such a hard time getting past Covid. YU needs to do a better job or become irrelevant."
Kudos to Rabbi Burg! It's about time someone spoke up to state the obvious.
Maybe his words will at least get noticed. I don't really think they will change many minds, as I am pessimistic in general that reason and evidence can have an effect on the vast majority of people's opinions on these matters.
Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former head of the FDA, recently said, "I think we should start lifting these restrictions as aggressively as we put them in...We need to preserve the credibility of public health officials to perhaps reimplement some of these provisions as we get into next winter, if we do start seeing outbreaks again.”
In other words, if you want us to believe you when you cry pikuach nefesh, then you have to be willing to cry, "Ad kan!" when the danger has passed and tell people to resume their normal lives.
The YU Roshei Yeshiva in particular were very outspoken at the height of the pandemic in saying minyanim should be stopped, shuls closed, etc.
Where are they now when it is time, as Dr. Gottlieb as said, to say, "Ad kan!" Where are they now to tell someone sitting in 30 degree weather davening outside in a tent with no walls, as I recently saw at one of the local MO shuls in my neighborhood, that this beyond the pale of what being choshesh for pikuach nefesh calls for?
A bit early for Purim Torah, isn't it?
ReplyDelete> A reminder why the MO community has had such a hard time getting past Covid
Quite harsh. Basically you're criticizing the YU Seforim Sale for implementing basic precautions since pandemic numbers remain high and this is now a very preventable illness with specific measures that, let's be honest, aren't onerous.
So sorry Rabbi Burg. Would you like me to remind you of how the UO community handled CoVID? Of the tens of thousands (at least) of preventable deaths because precautions were ignored in a paranoid frenzy that believed this was all about "destroying the Torah"?
Perhaps MO looked the stupidity that passed for the Chareidi response to the virus and is thinking "Look, it's just masks. We can hang on a little longer."
First of all, Dr Mike, if you want to wear a mask to the seforim sale or get yourself vaxxed, then who is stopping you? We know that vaxxed peole spread the virus too, so it's not like if everyone around you is vaxxed you won't get sick. If you feel more comfortable triple masking with K95s and getting multiple boosters to feel safe, go ahead. Why do other people need to do the same? Lock yourself in a cave until germs have been eradicated -- I don't care, just don't expect me to do the same.
DeleteSecondly, Dr Mike, can you explain to me why a YI would require a vaccine and mask, but congregants from the same community shop in the local kosher grocery that requires none of the above? Or eat out in kosher restaurants unmasked? Does the virus only pose a danger when people are praying? Do you not see the absurdity of the double-standards?
Thirdly, I am curious what studies you have that substantiate your assertion that the death rate in chareidi communities (however you choose to define that) is higher than MO communities?
And when you calculate your costs of preventable deaths, do you also factor in the costs of lockdowns championed by medical professionals like youtself, ie the increase in mental health problems like depression, drug abuse, suicide, teen self-harm; the cancer, heart disease, and other health problems that went untreated and undiagnosed because people missed dr visits; the necessary "elective" surgeries that had to be put on hold; the developmental delays in children caused by their education being interrupted and their being forced to wear masks all day, despite scant evidence that it prevents anything?
And finally, if you want shuls to adopt the strictest standards when it comes to health issues, then why not when it comes to halacha? Why is it OK to throw someone out of shul because they don't have a vaxx card or a mask, but no problem when a woman in a too short skirt comes in to daven, or a man walking up to take the amud wearing shorts instead of pants? I would hate to be cynical and think that the reason is because people think science is somehow more real then religion, so perhaps you can explain it.
I may be misreading your comment when you refer Rabbi Burg to how the UO community handled Covid, but what made the tweet so notable is precisely the fact that R' Burg is someone squarely in the MO camp. He is a father of 3 YU students and a member of the YU HS board. He writes on his Facebook page he writes that he has been overwhelmed by parents and students thanking him for what he wrote, indicating that the view he expressed in his tweet is shared by many, if not most, in the MO community at large.
DeleteSo putting aside all the issues I raised above, do you not see a problem with the flagship institution of the MO community being completely out of touch and dismissive of the feelings of its constituent community?
As Rabbi Burg wrote on Facebook, he attempted to reach out to YU for dialogue on this issue, but there is no one to talk to.
Is the MO community run by fiat? I would have thought that is more the hallmark of ultra-orthodoxy, but maybe not...
1) Here's what don't get - this is a contagious disease. It's like smoking. Imagine you're sitting at the table in a restaurant and someone at the table next to you starts smoking. So you say "Dude, you mind?" and he says, "Dude, I'm at my table minding my own business so you mind yours." Yes, vaccinated people spread the disease but at a far lower rate. Combining vaccination, masks and no symptoms leads to no transmission. You might find the very rare exception and I know people who do and shout "See! See! It happened anyway!" Again, here's an easy example. I've met people serious injured by their seatbelts in a car crash. The "frum" response would be to say "So seatbelts don't prevent injury so I don't have to wear one!" That's what you're advocating here. You can avoid your seatbelt or smoke at your table and I should mind my own business.
Delete2) There is the factor of duration of exposure and level of crowding. A quick trip into a butcher shop to buy something and walking out is a minimal risk. And frankly, if the shop is crowded then at this point I'd still expect people to be masking. Mulling around a crowded seforim sale for an extended period of time, picking up and touching things that dozens of other people have touched is quite another.
It's the same for shul. A quiet group of 10-15 guys well spaced out is one thing but a crowded shteibl is quite another.
3) Yes, there has been terrible collateral damage but the raw numbers pale in comparison to the numbers who suffered from CoVID. This was a no-win situation and governments had to choose the lesser evil. People who complain now because the lockdown caused other damage are like folks who complain because when the fire department showed up, they got the carpets wet.
4) Because God is forgiving and CoVID is not.
>>>Would you like me to remind you of how the UO community handled CoVID? Of the tens of thousands (at least) of preventable deaths because precautions were ignored in a paranoid frenzy that believed this was all about "destroying the Torah"?
ReplyDeleteWhile waiting for the source of your assertion I did a little checking myself and compared Boro Park (zip code 11219) and with Riverdale (zip code 10463) -- anyone interested can do the same at https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-neighborhoods.page
In the UO community of Boro Park the website tells me "One out of every241 people in this neighborhood died of COVID-19," and for MO Riverdale it tells me, "One out of every 159 people in this neighborhood died of COVID-19." It also tells me that Boro Parks' death rate is "lower than Brooklyn's death rate of 417.13," but Riverdale's is "higher than The Bronx's death rate of 470.38."
Surely there must be some mistake?
Yup, and it's all yours.
Deletehttps://www.timesofisrael.com/1-in-73-ultra-orthodox-israelis-over-65-has-died-of-covid-report-says/
https://vinnews.com/2020/05/06/rosh-yeshiva-of-ponovezh-explains-disproportionately-high-rate-of-chareidi-victims-from-covid-19/
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/04/pandemic-covid-hasidic-jews-yiddish/618539/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12397-021-09368-0
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00104-6/fulltext
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/12/the-government-cant-save-ultra-orthodox-jews-from-covid-19-religious-leaders-can/
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/israel-s-ultra-orthodox-reject-criticism-defy-virus-rules-1.5303240
The whole world noticed!
Is there a single scientific study you want to point to in the list with actual statistics that prove your point?
DeleteI've given you statistical evidence, you are giving me The Altlantic. I think I've made my case.
Did you miss the Lancet reference?
DeleteYou wanted to contrast MO with UO. The Lancet is talking about "strictly Orthodox" Jews. Did the Lancet weed out MO Jews from their study and not consider them among the "strictly Orthodox?"
DeleteBut to address the more fundamental point, your argument is irrelevant. What the UO community did in response to the virus has no bearing on what R' Burg and many other members of the MO community feel our response, the response of the MO community, should be, given the current facts on the ground. Even our left wing governor in NY has rescinded mask mandates except for in schools. Is she also a hareidi Jew who does not understand the seriousness of the virus or the need for masking?
If beating up the UO community for their past actions instead of addressing the issue makes you feel better, I guess go ahead, but I am not sure to what end.
I will be very happy the day mask mandates end. I'm already at the point where "let it spread now that it's Omicron" seems to be a valid strategy. After all, the last big wave hit more people than ever but hospitalizations remained manageable and, had vaccinations been higher, probably would've been even lower. My point is that those folks are still concerned have what to rely on and acting as if it's so obvious that we can stop with precautions and go back to normal is unfair and possibly incorrect.
DeleteThink of it this way. You're being ask to get a safe vaccine to slow the spread of a contagious disease, not huddle in a bunker for 2 years because enemy planes are bombing your city at night and you're shouting "I got right!"
ReplyDeleteYou're being asked to wear a simple mask over the lower half of your face in various public spaces instead of huddling at home with a gas mask handy because the enemy might drop missiles into your neighbourhood and you shout "This is too much!"
At the being, you were asked to man your cough instead of being asked to man your artillery gun or fox hole on a battlefield and you shouted "Intolerable!"
What does that say?
Here's another citation
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8064418/
And this one lets us know that we can learn from UO Jews how NOT to handle CoVID
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/covid-19-story-tip-study-of-orthodox-jews-may-help-guide-covid-19-prevention-in-culturally-bonded-groups