Wednesday, March 10, 2010

minuy for korban pesach and the the concept of joint ownership

The gemara (Sukkah 27b) darshens the pasuk “kol ha’ezrach b’Yisrael yeishvu ba’sukkos” to mean that a single sukkah owned by one person may be used by even all the Jewish people so long as they take turns. The gemara concludes from here that there is no requirement to own one’s own sukkah. Rashi is troubled by the logic of this derasha. Maybe ownership of a sukkah is required; the pasuk allows even the entire nation to use a single sukkah because it is speaking of a sukkah jointly owned by everyone. Rashi answers that such a case is impossible. If the entire nation owned a single sukkah, the worth of each person’s share would be less than a perutah. Such a minute stake does not count as a partnership. (See Minchas Chinuch 325 for more on this Rashi.)

Yet, the gemara (Kiddushin 41) accepts the possibility of a korban Pesach jointly owned by all of klal yisrael. The gemara rejects “v’shachatu oso kol kahal adas yisrael” as a source for shlichus, even though one person does shechita on behalf of the entire community, because that may be a unique case where everyone whom the shliach is acting for has a share in the korban. Why in this case do we not apply Rashi’s rule? If all of klal yisrael were to share in one korban, the stake of each person would certainly amount to less than a perutah; it should be so negligible as to be meaningless?

Let me take one possible answer to this problem off the table right away. You could reject the premise of the question and argue that the korban pesach necessitates minuy – being counted as a participant – but minuy does not require ownership. My son’s birthday was last week and his present was an Imrei Binah, which raises this issue (Hil Pesach end of siman 2). The I.B. opines that a kinyan is required for minuy. Granted you could debate his proof and argue otherwise, but for now let's avoid that debate. How else might you answer this question?


  1. When the gemara learns that all of Klal Yisroel could have one korban, it does not mean that 13 million people could share in one korban. We know this because the korban must be able to provide all of the menuyim at least a kezayis to eat. So there is a maximum number of people per korban - the number of kezaysim of meat in the animal. When the gemara says one korban could be used for Klal Yisroel, the case would have to be that the overwhelming majority are either temayim or bederech rechokah, and all of the eligible people could be "squeezed" into one korban. In this case, since each person would have ownership of at least a kezayis worth of meat of the korban, this would clearly be at least a shaveh prutah for each person - hence no comparison to sukkah.

  2. Yosef - Your teretz is crechtzing - you could say there aren't enough minutes in the day to take turns using a sukka..

  3. Yosef2:05 PM

    Netanel - I don't understand what you are talking about. It is a fact that each nimneh in the korban must be able to actually eat a kezayis of the korban. See Hilchos Korban Pesach 2:14. If you have a korban with 50 kezaysim you cannot have 51 menuyim for it. So each person has a share of one kezayis of meat in the korban, which is certainly worth more than a shaveh prutah. With regard to Sukkah you could make up any case you want to, but Rashi apparently thought that time of use is not an issue, and the only issue is that of shaveh prutah. My explanation, in both cases, pesach and sukkah, is based upon halachic facts - your suggestion is based on a metziyus that you made up. Who's "crechtzing" now?

  4. See Tosfos there in Kiddushin (42a d"h dilma) who spells out that the sugya assumes achila is not me'akeiv, so you can theoretically have an unlimited # of minu'im. Maybe I should have spelled that out in the post.
    As an aside, why do you assume a k'zayis of meat is worth a shaveh perutah and never less? And if rov of the tzibur is tamei, tumah hutra/dechuya, so they could be nimneh, no?

  5. Yosef2:35 PM

    I must retract my earlier answer. The gemara in Pesachim on 78b says that Rabi Nasan, the author of the statement that all of Yisroel can use one korban also holds that the menuyim do not have to have a share of a kezayis each in the korban. If so, then he holds that 13 million people could all use one korban pesach, in which case the original kushya stands.

    This being the case, another answer is necessary. Perhaps we can say that while korban pesach is indeed a korban yachid in certain respects, it is also a korban tzibur in other respects, most notably that during heter habamos, it was a lav to bring a korban pesach on a bamas yachid. Therefore, the ability for all of klal yisroel to share in one korban according to Rabi Nasan is due to the korban tzibur aspect of the korban, where shutfus is not relevant. This has nothing to do with sukkah, since there's no such thing as a sukkas tzibur, so by sukkah shutfus is the only operable choice.

  6. Tamir4:12 PM

    My son’s birthday was last week and his present was an Imrei Binah, which raises this issue (Hil Pesach end of siman 2). The I.B. opines that a kinyan is required for minuy.

    I guess with Imrei Bina you mean the one by R. Meir Aurbach, because there are more than one. If so, I guess your referring to the sugya here:
    ( Dibur haMatchil: uQesat Yesh leHavi Re'aya)

  7. Yup, that's it -- the paragraph that starts "u'ketzas".

  8. Korbonos tzibbur are jointly owned by klal yisroel yet the ownership is less than a perutah?

    pc :-)