Tuesday, March 09, 2021

onshei beis din on Shabbos

 1) אלה פקודי – בפרשה זו נאמרו ונמנו כל משקל נדבת המשכן לכסף ולזהב ולנחשת, ונמנו כל כליו וכל עבודתו.

I don't understand what this first Rashi in Pekudei is doing.  It's like an introduction to the parsha; it tells us what the parsha is about.  But what is the difficulty in the parsha or pasuk that prompted the comment?  Rashi doesn't give an introductory comment like this is any other parsha as far as I can recall so why here?

2) The gemara in Yevamos 6 learns from לֹא־תְבַעֲר֣וּ אֵ֔שׁ בְּכֹ֖ל מֹשְׁבֹֽתֵיכֶ֑ם בְּי֖וֹם הַשַּׁבָּֽתthat there is a special issur of B"D carrying out capital punishment on Shabbos:

 מכדי שבת חובת הגוף היא וחובת הגוף נוהגת בין בארץ בין בח"ל מושבות דכתב רחמנא בשבת למה לי משום רבי ישמעאל אמר תלמיד אחד לפי שנאמר וכי יהיה באיש חטא משפט מות והומת שומע אני בין בחול בין בשבת ומה אני מקיים מחלליה מות יומת בשאר מלאכות חוץ ממיתת ב"ד או אינו אלא אפילו מיתת ב"ד ומה אני מקיים והומת בחול ולא בשבת או אינו אלא אפילו בשבת ת"ל לא תבערו אש בכל מושבותיכם ולהלן הוא אומר והיו אלה לכם לחוקת משפט לדורותיכם בכל מושבותיכם מה מושבות האמורים להלן בב"ד אף מושבות האמורים כאן בב"ד

The Rambam for some reason counts this as a separate mitzvah in his minyan ha'mitzvos and extends it to all punishments, even malkos (Shabbos 24:7):

אין עונשין בשבת אף על פי שהעונש מצות עשה אינה דוחה שבת. כיצד הרי שנתחייב בבית דין מלקות או מיתה אין מלקין אותו ואין ממיתין אותו בשבת שנאמר לא תבערו אש בכל מושבותיכם ביום השבת זו אזהרה לבית דין שלא ישרפו בשבת מי שנתחייב שריפה והוא הדין לשאר עונשין:

The Avnei Nezer writes that even putting someone in cheirem would be prohibited on Shabbos according to the Rambam.

(If someone refuses to do a mitzvah, B"D has the right to coerce the person to do it.  See Kesubos 86: תנינא במה דברים אמורים במצות לא תעשה אבל במצות עשה כגון שאומרין לו עשה סוכה ואינו עושה לולב ואינו עושה מכין  אותו עד שתצא נפשו:   The Pri Megadim in his Pesicha haKolleles points out that B"D seems to be allowed to do this even on Shabbos/Y"T --  עשה סוכה ואינו עושה לולב ואינו עושה.  Apparently this does not fall under the category of "punishment."  

The Mishneh laMelech similarly has a safeik whether it is permitted to kill a rodeif who is about to violate an issur arayos on Shabbos.  This is the classic chakirah of whether taking out the rodef is a form of punishment, or simply a means to the end of saving the nirdaf.)

The difficulty is the din in Yevamos appears in context of the gemara trying to prove that an aseh can be doche a lav that is a chiyuv kareis.  The gemara continues:

מאי לאו רבי נתן היא דאמר לחלק יצתה וטעמא דכתב רחמנא לא תבערו הא לאו הכי דחי 

Rashi דאמר הבערה אב מלאכה היא ובכרת ואפ"ה אי לאו דאשמועינן ה"א אתי עשה דוהומת ודחי ליה

Meaning, there is a machlokes Tanaim as to why the Torah singles out hav'arah in our pasuk.  R' Yosi holds that the Torah is teaching that hav'arah is only a lav, unlike the other melachos of Shabbos.  R' Noson holds that by singling out one melacha we learn that each melacha individually is mechayeiv kareis; you don't have to do all 39 to be chayav for chilul Shabbos.  According to R' Noson, even though hav'arah is a chiyuv kareis, if not for a special limud, we would say that the aseh of B"D carrying out punishment should be doche it.  QED, that an aseh can be doche even a chiyuv kareis.

According to the Rambam, what's the gemara's proof?  Maybe the aseh is not doche the chiyuv kareis of Shabbos, but you still need the extra pasuk to teach you the chiddush din that you can't administer any punishments on Shabbos, even if they don't entail any chillul Shabbos?

5 comments:

  1. I believe the answer for the Rambam is it is only after we know that there is an issur of administering a punishment of שרפה that he expands the principle to all punishments (somehow) but its not a separate issuer of punishing on Shabbos that you can ask I need a possuk for that issur.

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    1. "expands the principle to all punishments (somehow)"

      could it be that Rambam's perek 24 deals with shvut, and that in such a context the paid dayanim of a B"D would by punishing be tending to >their< affairs (although also His affairs) on Shabbos?

      so while the action of sereifa einah dochah Shabbos d'oraysa (35:3*), further punishments (mitzvahs asei) einah dochah Shabbos d'Rabbanan (because of shvut)?


      (*we might have thought that sereifa [hav'arah], which atones for the individual offender, is permitted on Shabbos, from some likeness to the korban tamid, which in burning atones for the klal)

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  2. I do t have an answer to your first question, just an observation that rashi says "נמנו "המשקל. It's not just a counting, it's counting the weight. Now I don't know what that means, just a preliminary thought.

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  3. In answer to your first question, it's not that Rashi is giving his own introduction to the parsha. He is explaining the words אלה פקודי המשכן mean just that -- that the Torah is about to tell us the counting of the weight of all the precious metals used, and all the Kelim that were made.

    IOW, the Torah itself is giving and introduction, an Rashi is explaining that the word פקודי, which generally means counting, here means accounting for the weights of precious metals and the individual kelim.

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    1. Maybe to make it clearer, פקודי would generally mean the number of something counted. For example, in Parshas Bamidbar, the word פְּקֻֽדֵיהֶ֖ם is used to mean the number of men counted in each tribe, and then the total number of men in Bnei Yisrael. On that meaning, פקודי המשכ would be one -- there is one mishkan.

      Rashi's point here is that it is not the mishkan itself that is being counted, but the materials used to make it, and the kelim made to be used in it.

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