Wednesday, April 26, 2006

Mechuyav derabbanan being motzi mechyav d'oraysa

R’ Chaim Markowitz discusses an interesting shitas haMordechi here. The Mordechai says that a blind person can be motzi others in Kiddush even according to R’ Yehudah who holds that a suma is chayav in Kiddush only m’derabbanan and others have a chiyuv d’oraysa. Just like you can be yotzei kiddush during tosefes Shabbos (which Mordechai holds is derabbanan) because it will eventually become dark where there is a chiyuv d'oraysa, so too, since the suma may potentially regain his eyesight, the present status of chiyuv derabbanan is sufficient to be motzi a d'oraysa. What kind of combination is this? If a mechuyav m'derabbanan is considered a “bar chiyuva” parallel with someone who has a chiyuv d’oraysa, then why do you need the sevara that things may change afterwards? And if the driving sevara here is the later potential for a d’oraysa obligation, then even someone who has no chiyuv at all now should be able to be motzi someone else?
R’ Elchanan Wasserman (Koveitz Shiurim II:30) writes that the Mordechai is addressing two factors that have to coincide for one to be motzi another in a mitzvah -1) being a bar chiyuva 2) being actually obligated b’poel to do the mitzvah at that moment. The potential future obligation turns one into a bar chiyuva. Yet, that is insufficient to be motzi someone if no present obligation exists. For that, the Mordechai holds at a minimum a chiyuv derabbanan is necessary.

5 comments:

  1. Anonymous3:05 PM

    I'm not sure if I follow this sevara. What if you have already heard (or made) Kiddush on Shabbos, and then you later want to make Kiddush for your wife? Obviously, you no longer have a chiyuv - yet I have never heard anyone say that you can't make Kiddush in that instance. Would the Mordechai say that you can't be motzei your wife?

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  2. If you already heard kiddush and want to be motzi your wife (i.e. you have a chiyuv derabbanan and she has a chiyuv d'oreysa) it is not at all clear that you can be - this is a kashe raised by the Dagul M'Revavava with many teirutzim given. According to the Mordechai (and this is shitas rashi as well) there is no kashe because anyone mechuyav m'derabbanan can be motzi someone who is mechuyav d'oraysa. The catch is the Mordechai adds this extra criteria that tosefes shabbos will eventually turn into shabbos, or the suma can regain his sight - why does he add that in if bottom line he agrees with rashi? That was R' Elchanan's kashe. I hope it is a bit clearer.

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  3. If you already heard kiddush and want to be motzi your wife (i.e. you have a chiyuv derabbanan and she has a chiyuv d'oreysa) it is not at all clear that you can be - this is a kashe raised by the Dagul M'Revavava with many teirutzim given. According to the Mordechai (and this is shitas rashi as well) there is no kashe because anyone mechuyav m'derabbanan can be motzi someone who is mechuyav d'oraysa. The catch is the Mordechai adds this extra criteria that tosefes shabbos will eventually turn into shabbos, or the suma can regain his sight - why does he add that in if bottom line he agrees with rashi? That was R' Elchanan's kashe. I hope it is a bit clearer.

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  4. Anonymous4:21 PM

    (I'm the same anonymous person as before.) L'fi the Mordechai, how do you have a chiyuv D'rabbanan if you have already made Kiddush? By the way, I remember hearing in yeshiva that the Rambam holds that you need to make Kiddush whenever you eat on Shabbos - I'm not sure if that is a chiyuv D'oraisa or D'rabbanan. I also don't know if that is relevant to the Moredechai or not.

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  5. Can you please clarify - I am not sure what you mean. The Mordechai has two cases 1) suma saying Kiddush for his wife 2) regular person saying Kiddush during tosefes. According to everyone, ain hachi nami, if you said Kiddush, you are done m’doraysa, but you can still be motzi others because of arvus. We are speaking of a suma who has not yet said Kiddush according to Rabbi Yehudah’s shita that a suma never has a chiyuv d’orysa in any mitzvos. With respect to Kiddush and seudah, see the previous discussion I am not sure what you mean. The Mordechai has two cases 1) suma saying Kiddush for his wife 2) regular person saying Kiddush during tosefes. According to everyone, ain hachi nami, of you said Kiddush, you are done m’doraysa, but you can still be motzi others because of arvus. We are speaking of a suma who has not yet said Kiddush according to Rabbi Yehudah’s shita that a suma never has a chiyuv d’orysa in any mitzvos. With respect to Kiddush and seudah, see the previous discussion http://divreichaim.blogspot.com/2006/03/eating-before-kiddusha-rabbah-rambam.html – your approach fits well with the Ra’avad cited there, not sure which Rambam you are referring to.

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