Monday, July 17, 2006

Eid echad on psak halacha - R' Shachter's latest article in Beis Yitzchok

The latest article of R’ Hershel Schachter that appeared in Beis Yitzchak has been posted online by Menachem Butler. Apparently this article is a write up of a speech given in commemoration of the yahrtzeit of the Rav and contains many interesting stories, but also contains 2 chiddusim in lomdus that are of more concern to me.
The Shulchan Aruch paskens (Y.D. 188:2) that a woman who has a mareh (a stain on a bedika cloth) and says a Rav was matir a similar mareh for her, or tells her friend that she does not have to worry about a particular mareh because a Rav was matir a similar case, is not believed. Why is this not a case of eid echad ne'eman b'issurim? R’ Shachter explains in the name of the Rav that the content of the woman's testimony relates to conveying a psak halacha. Issues of psak halacha must be determined solely by experts who are chachamei hamesorah - an eid echad has no ne’emanus when it comes to this domain. This becomes a springboard for R’ Shachter to bemoan the many Rabbis who incorrecly cite psak in the name of the Rav based on their own misunderstanding. R' Shachter claims that the Rav himself enjoined others not to accept halacha cited in his name because an eid echad is precluded from ne'emanus regarding psak. Leaving aside the pragmatic question of who is a member of the chachamei hamesorah, and the criticism of incorrectly cited psak not withstanding, the basic lomdus here seems difficult to understand.
The source for this halacha is a braysa in Niddah 20b. The gemara tells us that a women who shows a mareh to a Rav and says "I saw a similar mareh but lost it" is believed - a Rav can pasken assuming the mareh which was lost indeed matches the one before him based on the woman’s testimony. However, if a women has a mareh that is available and not lost, or says about a mareh of her neighbor’s that "Ploni Chacham paskened a similar mareh is tahor", we do not believe her. Clearly, as the first case indicates, we accept a woman's expertise to compare two maros accurately, so why in this second instance do we not believe her that Ploni Chacham was already matir some similar case? R’ Shachter’s reading is that the second testimony concerns itself with a conclusion of psak and is categorically excluded from the parsha of eid echad. However, the Rishonim explain the case quite differently. The more obvious difference between the cases is that in the second case, the mareh in question is available before us for examination, while in the first case it is not. The Rashba writes that the physical evidence of a questionable mareh casts doubt on the accuracy of the woman’s ne'emanus to say that Ploni Chacham saw an identical case and paskened unequivically tahor. It is the physical evidence of a safek before us which throws into doubt the accuracy of the eid echad's comparison. Rashi is even sharper in his formulation, writing about the second case ‘hacha d’isa Kaman nechzei anan’ – if the mareh is here and not lost, let us examine the physical evidence! There is no need to rely on the weaker evidence of eid echad to resolve the issue. It is not the content of the eidus (psak vs. other areas) which removes the ne’emanus of the witness, but rather we simply hold physical evidence leads to a more accurate conclusion (see the Aruch haShulchan's citation of this halacha).
If we take Rashi’s formulation to its extreme conclusion, every single mareh must be shown to someone for psak because physical evidence precludes ne’emanus. However, the achronim write that this was true only in the days of Chazal where chachamim made fine differentiations between different shades of red. Today, we do not draw such fine distinctions, and a women has a right at least to draw gross comparisons between maros. This caveat fits nicely if one works with the understanding that the physical evidence is the barrier to ne’emanus – where the physical evidence is clearly in accord with the eid, there is no reason to require psak. But according to R’ Shachter’s understanding, why should this be true? No one other than the chachamei hamesorah can ever draw any halachic conclusions, so a posek should have to address everything, even the most obvious maros. Is this not a reduction ad absurdum?
I do not know the answers – maybe one of R’ Shachter’s talmidim can offer some insight.


  1. RHS should know that there is a literature call SHUT - published halakhic decisions which any literate Jew can read. So I don't have a clue about his issue.

    There has been some debate about whether later editions of RMF's SHUT were edited and changed in some slight ways. Of course, you can compare editions - so that too is a moot point.

    An oral psak or report of an oral psak from a dead rabbi is nothing more than a rumor or gossip as far as I am concerned and I would not accept that - even from RHS.

  2. Shu"t is irrelevant - that is a psak straight from the source, not subjet to second-hand sid echad criteria. Secondly, the halacha clearly does accept an oral report of psak as valid, barring a rey'usa before us, as sugya in Nida 20b demonstrates. I don't see how anything you wrote addresses the sources or the issue at hand.

  3. Bill Selliger12:39 PM

    I am not a talmid of RHS.

    If we take Rashi’s formulation to its extreme conclusion, every single mareh must be shown to someone for psak because physical evidence precludes ne’emanus.

    The woman can pasken herself. It has nothing to do with ne'emanus. The same way the Rav knows (e.g. shimush) the woman will know too.

    No one other than the chachamei hamesorah can ever draw any halachic conclusions,

    RHS never said this. All he said was that eid echad is not believed when it comes to what yenem paskened. Other people can come up with their own psak - based on evidence.

    By the way, isn't there a gemara dealing with eidim relating rulings from other batei dinim? I can't remember where, but I'm sure it exists. (Makos, maybe?)

  4. >>>The woman can pasken herself. It has nothing to do with ne'emanus.

    See the Sidrei Tahara in Y.D. who disagrees with your assertion and writes that based on Rashi's principle of 'nichzei anan', let the chacham see the mareh, anytime there is a safek to be resolved the woman has no right to compare it to any other evidence (i.e. other mares she knows to be kosher) but must ask a shayla. Because of that, achronim want to limit this Rashi.

    >>>All he said was that eid echad is not believed when it comes to what yenem paskened. Other people can come up with their own psak - based on evidence.

    I should have been clearer on that point. You are correct - the issue of no ne'emanus only comes up in relaying the psak of another party. It just seems odd to me (and this may be a pragmatic point) that someone who is musmach as yoreh yoreh to arrive at his own psak even without seeking a concurring opinion should not be believed to relate psak in the same of the Rav or anyone else. Is every musmach one of the 'chachamei hamesorah', to use RHS's term? This term is borrowed from a shiur in Shiurim l'Zecher Aba Mari where is means gedolei yisrael who leads the generation.

    >>>By the way, isn't there a gemara dealing with eidim relating rulings from other batei dinim?

    Makkos 7a regarding eidus on gmar din

  5. Bill Selliger1:50 PM

    anytime there is a safek to be resolved the woman has no right to compare it to any other evidence (i.e. other mares she knows to be kosher) but must ask a shayla.

    And her husband can pasken, even if he's not a Rav? Why, because he's a man and she's a woman? That makes no sense. V'su lo midi. (And believe me, I'm no Gloria Steinem).

    It just seems odd to me that someone who is musmach as yoreh yoreh to arrive at his own psak even without seeking a concurring opinion should not be believed to relate psak in the same of the Rav or anyone else

    Moshe Rabbeinu is not believed to tell B"D that Reuven killed Shimon - even if he comes together with his brother Aaron. It's not a personal indictment; such are the laws of testimony. RHS is saying that any one person is not believed regarding the testimony of a psak. (Hence my question about an explicit gemara already dealing with this issue.)

  6. yehuda2:57 PM

    Bova basra 110a.The gem relates how moshe rabbanus grandson became involved in avodah zorah due to his correctly quoting but misunderstanding a kabbolah he had from moshe rabbeinu.IMHO that explains many odd "pi hasmues"we hear.Not everyone correctly understands the limitations or the context of a psak given to them.

  7. >>>And her husband can pasken, even if he's not a Rav?

    I never said that! Her husband is probably less qualified : )

    >>>RHS is saying that any one person is not believed regarding the testimony of a psak.

    Ain hachi nami, but does the chiddush fit the makor?

    >>>Not everyone correctly understands the limitations or the context of a psak given to them.

    Ain hachi nami too. Had R' HS said that as a mussar haskel, using the illustrative stories, neicha. But that is not the same as saying a lomdish klal about eid echad and using a halacha in nida to prove it.

  8. Tal Benschar10:13 PM

    R. Schachter's other raaya is the gemara in Chullin 6b about the time that Rebbe was mattir the produce of Bet Shean as the produce of Chu"L. The basis of the psak was a maaseh of R. Meir as reported by his father in law, R. Yehoshua b. Zaruz. The gemara (7a) asks perhaps R. Meir took Maaser anyway without the observer realizing it. The gemara answers that a "gavra rabba" gave testimony on what R. Meir did.

    A maaseh of talmidei chachamim can indeed be the basis for a psak halacha -- but it has to be reported by a gavra rabbah who will not err by missing details that could change the import of the maaseh completely. That is probably a better raayah for what RHS is saying.

  9. jeffrey smith11:54 PM

    I would think that tal benschar is right. To put it more specifically in terms of the woman with her mareh: she can judge the similarity of this mareh with the other, but there her expertise ends. She does not know the details which were the grounds for ruling it matir, and therefore can not say if those details are present in the current case. It is only someone who has learned it b'mesorah, and knows which details to look for, that can decide if this mareh is truly matir.
    But this could be legitimately limited if the woman has recieved enough training on her own to identify the appropriate details--in which case she can inform us not only of the general outcome, but the particular reasons which produced that outcome

  10. >>>She does not know the details which were the grounds for ruling it matir,

    Not sure what you mean - it's either red or it isn't?
    Anyway, again, what you are saying is not found in the Rishonim. Your sevara is to believe her that mareh X=mareh Y but deny her the right to psak. The Rishonim say we do not accept her testimony that mareh X=mareh Y - why should we when we can examine it ourselves.

    The issue of paskening for a ma'aseh rav is a different idea completely. I fail to see its relevance to the first scenario he suggests, namely, if I asked the Rav (or anyone else) a shayla and received psak X (mutar, assur, whatever), if I relay that information to a third party, should my words be believed? R' Shachter would say that even if I was a musmach of the Rav my words should still not be believed even on what I heard directly unless I am one of the few chachmei hamesorah.

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