The Mishna in Kiddushin tells us that a person cannot be mekadesh a women using issurei hana’ah, as these items have no value. The Mishne l’Melech (Ishus perek 5) raises an interesting question: if a person is mekadesh a women who is deathly ill with issurei hana’ah that she needs for her illness, is the kiddushin valid? On the one hand, for this particular woman the issur hana’ah does have value; on the other hand, for the mekadesh and for the rest of the world, the prohibition of using such an item renders it valueless.
Achronim raise a similar question with regards to mishloach manos. If one were to give an item which is assur b’hana’ah to someone who is deathly ill, has one fulfilled the mitzvah of mishloach manos? Does mishloach manos need to be something of value to begin with (and if so, how much value)? Can it have to be something which the recipient alone values, or something of value to the sender as well?
Shu”t L’Horos Nasan (vol 2 # 54) suggests that this question may hinge on a famous dispute between the Terumas haDeshen and the Manos haLevi regarding the purpose of mishloach manos. The TH”D holds that the purpose of mishloach manos is to add to and enhance seudas Purim. Therefore, if a person is deathly ill and is permitted to eat a seudah of issurei hana’ah, these foods can serve as mishloach manos. The Manos haLevi, however, holds that the purpose of mishloach manos is to create a sense of friendship and camaraderie. Support for such an idea can be found in the Ritv”a’s chiddush (Meg 7) that if one gives a mishloach manos of insignificant value to a wealthy important person, one has not fulfilled the mitzvah. Since the gift makes no impression on the recipient and does not foster any feeling of friendship, it cannot count as mishloach manos. Perhaps one can apply the same chiddush in reverse to our case. Since giving away issurei hana’ah costs nothing and is something the giver would want to get rid of anyway, it does not convey that feeling of friendship that mishloach manos is supposed to foster and would therefore not fulfill the mitzvah.
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I am not sure I understand - the Ritva is based on the feelings of a wealthy recipient while the application to Issur Hana'a you use depends on whether it is something the giver would give away in any case. I see the pivotal case then as follows: What then of an Ashir who gives something very small to an Ani - since the Ani knows the Ashir could have given something much greater does it generate feelings of friendship or does it depend simply on the value it has to the Ani? Or do we say that it has to make an impression on both?
ReplyDeleteYour case raises the same essential issue as the l'Horos Nasan - in both cases the cost to the giver is trivial, either because the item being given as no value, or in your case, because of the wealth of the giver. Perhaps I did not make it clear enought, but according to the Manos haLevi (if you accept this approach) the problem with using issurei hana'ah is not an issue of value, but of meaning - i.e. it means nothing to give away a gift like that.
ReplyDeleteOne could argue that the receiver will appreciate the gift even though it did not cost anything to the giver.
ReplyDeleteIf Bill Gates gave you $1 million, I am sure you would be very appreciative even though for Bill Gates it is nothing.
1. Now I understand why, when you give wedding and Bar Mitzvah gifts, we tend to give more expensive gifts to the children of wealthy families, and lesser ones to the poor. Because of the Ritva!
ReplyDelete2. The story goes that someone in Baltimore sent dog food to a 'rabbi' for shalach manos. Dog food is often asur be'hana'ah, because it contains basar be'chalav. But according to the Manos Levi, it could be that the sender was yotzei the mitzvah. It certainly made an impression on the recipient.
3. According to the Manos Levi, why is it called Manos? Call it matonos, call it ochlim, call it nasherai. Manos means 'courses.'
4. I highly recommend that when you send shalach manos, that it include a pastrami sandwich for the man of the house, or a barbecued chicken, maybe a nice hot pizza, or at least a salami. Leave the 'themes' for your wives and leave the chocolate for Holloween. It doesn't matter how rich or poor the guy is-- he'll appreciate it.
5. Send at least one shalach manos to someone you don't particularly get along with. It will engender either a better relationship, or a gnashing of the teeth, either of which are good.
so my question remains:
ReplyDelete- is meaning determined by the giver, receiver or both?
- acc. to the Ritva, it depends at least to a certain extent on the meaning for the receiver (could still be both)
- the Manos haLevi extends this to meaning for the giver (and assuming he holds by the Ritva, requires meaning for both)
Chaim B - I would argue that the Ritva determines meaning at least to a certain extent as having personal value - according to teh Manos haLevi that is not necessarily the case (ie. meaning might be more limited given that his case of issur hana'a is more limiting than the Ritvas case where personal value is the determinant)
OR am I misunderstanding the whole case?
>>>One could argue that the receiver will appreciate the gift even though it did not cost anything to the giver.
ReplyDeleteI agree, but the l'Horos Nasan doesn't.
>>>- the Manos haLevi extends this to meaning for the giver (and assuming he holds by the Ritva, requires meaning for both)
All the Manos haLevi says is that the reason for mishloach manos is for more reyus. The L'Horos Nasan extrapolate from that to conclude that the item given has to cause a loss to the giver to be significant, otherwise it does not demonstrate reyus. And the Ritv"a only talks about the receiver. I just want to clarify who says what because you do need to jump few a few hoops to get from the Manos haLevi to R' Nasan Gestetner's conclusion and you can dispute any of the steps along the way.
>>>2. The story goes that someone in Baltimore sent dog food to a 'rabbi' for shalach manos.
Are you yotzei mishloach manos if you send them to a pet? If the mitvah is to send to "l'rey'eyhu" I don't know what that says about the sender!
I would like to argue on my comment above.
ReplyDeleteWhen a poor person receives tzeddaka-even if it is a lot of money, the poor person doesn't consider the rich person his friend. Rather he realizes that the rich person had extraordinary rachmanus on him and gave him a lot of money.
L'mashol, Oprah Winfrey has these campaigns where she gives people free cars. Noone will say that because I got a car from Oprah therefore she is my friend. Rather, they would say she feels sorry for people and gives them presents.
Similarly with Bill Gates. I would say that if Bill Gates gave you $1 Million it would not be construed as rayus. You would not say that "Bill Gates gave me all this money so he must be my friend". Rather you would say, "Bill Gates had pity on me and felt bad that I was living a middle class lifestyle. Therefore he gave me a present".
I would like to argue on my comment above.
ReplyDeleteWhen a poor person receives tzeddaka-even if it is a lot of money, the poor person doesn't consider the rich person his friend. Rather he realizes that the rich person had extraordinary rachmanus on him and gave him a lot of money.
L'mashol, Oprah Winfrey has these campaigns where she gives people free cars. Noone will say that because I got a car from Oprah therefore she is my friend. Rather, they would say she feels sorry for people and gives them presents.
Similarly with Bill Gates. I would say that if Bill Gates gave you $1 Million it would not be construed as rayus. You would not say that "Bill Gates gave me all this money so he must be my friend". Rather you would say, "Bill Gates had pity on me and felt bad that I was living a middle class lifestyle. Therefore he gave me a present".
But by that token you can never fulfill mishloach manos by giving it to someone in need?
ReplyDelete(Somewhat related: The Turei Even has a safeik whether you can fulfill mishloach manos and matanot l'evyonim in one shot. How do you explain the safeik?)
You can definately give mishloach manos to someone in need, It just has to be an amount that you would also give to your friends.
ReplyDeleteTake the Oprah example. She would never give her friends a new car. She would only give it to people she was trying to help out.
Bill Gates also, maybe he would give $1 Million to his closest friend but maybe his friend would be insulted and say - you'r eonly giving me $1 Million.
The bottom line is if the amount you are giving the poor person is the same amount you would give your friends then it would be showing friendship.