Monday, October 06, 2008

standing for viduy and shome'a k'oneh

The Mechaber 607:3) paskens that if you are present when the shat"z says viduy you have to stand. Rama adds that you have to recite viduy with the shat"z. The implication is that the Mechaber holds that even if even if you are not saying anything along with the shatz you still have to stand (which is how the mishna berura explains it). Why should that be true? If you are not saying viduy, why do you have to stand?

I don't think it is a din in shome'a k'oneh, and nothing to do with any chovas hagavra to say viduy or stand while saying it. It's a seperate din in the definition of viduy -- the cheftza of viduy is something recited in the context of a tzibur which is standing.

Speaking of shome'a k'oneh and viduy, the Rosh in the last perek of Yoma (#25) quotes the view of Rav Amram Gaon that on Erev Y"K the shat"z should recite viduy out loud in chazaras hashat"z to be motzi someone who is aino baki and does not know how to say viduy him/herself. The Rosh and most opinions disagree. I would guess that shome'a k'oneh does not work to be motzio somepne in viduy because although the ma'aseh mitzvah of viduy is a recitation of sins, the kiyum mitzvah is only effective if there is a corresponding sense of regret in one's heart. Shome'a k'oneh does not work where there is a ma'aseh mitzvah but no kiyum. For example, one cannot rely on shome'a k'oneh for the mitzvah of kri'as shema (see Shnos Eliyahu of the GR"A on the first Mishna in Brachos) because the recitation alone is not the full mitzvah; it must be accompanied for a kabalos ol malchus shamayim which is done b'lev.


  1. Barzilai2:18 PM

    The Kohen Gadol says vidui on the Sa'ir Hamishtalei'ach and on the Par that's mechaper for all the kohanim. First of all, there is a shita that Sa'ir is not mechaper for him, and even if it is mechapeir for him, how would it work for the rest of the tzibur? I don't think you can say migo dezachi le'nafshei on vidui.

    Now, you can say that the Kohen Gadol is an exception; when you are mekayeim ve'ahavta...kamocha, you become like the other person mamash. This is nice at a sheva brachos, less so in a beis medrash. I did, however, see a Rabbeinu Chananel in Yoma that might be read like that, if I could only remember where it is. Or, you could simply say that from there is a raya that you can be motzi vidui with shomei'a ke'oneh.

    Ayy, you can't be motzi Modim or she'hechiyanu, because, as the Abudraham says, you can't say thank you with a shliach, so the logic of the question is still strong? I guess the answer is that the same way you can be motzi kabalas ohl malchus shamayim with a minyan, because a minyan makes them like guf echad. Go ahead and argue, I have a Ritva in my notes that's mashma like that.

  2. Barzilai2:37 PM

    Ritva Rosh Hashana 34 b dh R'g-- "betzibur chashiv tziruf ke'ilu hu motzi be'fiv."

  3. >>>First of all, there is a shita that Sa'ir is not mechaper for him, and even if it is mechapeir for him, how would it work for the rest of the tzibur?

    I don't understand what is bothering you. It does not work using the paradigm of yatzah-motzi, but is a completely different din. The K"G is the representitive of the klal and is misvadeh on their behalf, albeit that this viduy has nothing to do with his personal kaparah as a yachid. See the shiur of RYBS in his tshuvah volume on the tzibur vs. yachid.

  4. I thought of an analogy - kri'as hatorah. The Briskers learn that the koreh is not motzi the tzibur. It is a chovas hatzibur that the ba'al koreh fulfills on their behalf by his reading.

  5. I didn't mean that the vidui of the KG worked with shomei'a ke'oneh. I meant that if the vidui of a representative has any "vidui-meaning", it must show that A can say Vidui for B, and so shomei'a ke'oneh should work too. And krias hatora is no raya: There, there is no chiyuv on the yechidim at all. But how can it be that there is no chiyuv of vidui on the Klal on Yom Kippur? After all, those avodos that yechidim can do everyone agrees (in Kiddushin and Nazir, I think) that Kahani shluchi didan.

  6. There are 2 dinim: there is a viduy/kaparah for the yachid, as well as a viduy/kaparah on behalf of the tzibur -- the chovas hatzibur has nothing to do with the chiyuv on the yechidim.