Monday, December 15, 2008

toch k'dei dibbur

Once one says a bracha on food or a mitzvah, the food must immediatly be consumed or the mitzvah performed without interruption. Speaking between the bracha and action is not permitted. The Chayei Adam (klal #5) has an interesting safeik: what if one speaks only 1 or 2 words between the mitzvah and the action?

What difference does it make how many words are spoken? The rule is "toch k'dei dibur k'dibur damei" -- a break of less time than it takes to say "shalom alecha rebbi" is not considered a break or interruption. In this case would we say that since the action occurs within toch k'dei dibur of the bracha it is considered simultaneous to the bracha, or would we say that an interruption has occurred, regardless of how short its duration?

7 comments:

  1. I thought tokh kedai dibbur kedibbur dami is about the mind not being able to wander entirely away from the subject that quickly. Like the need for hasra'ah to be TKD of the cheit. However, if the person actually changed subjects bepo'al, maybe the presumption doesn't hold.


    Tangent: Tokh kedai dibbur is the time it would take to say 8 or 11 ("... umori") syllables. It is a halachic quantum of time when it comes to kavanah.

    Could it also be a convenient estimate of the quantum of time when it comes to making the calendar -- the cheileq? It would mean that Chazal expected a person to great their rebbe bekavod, speaking no faster than 2.4 or 3-1/3 syllables per second.

    It's not implausible, and it would make the two concepts of "smallest unit of time" identical.

    -micha

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  2. >>>I thought tokh kedai dibbur kedibbur dami is about the mind not being able to wander entirely away from the subject that quickly.

    Rabeinu Tam explains that tk"d is a takanah derabbanan to allow someone engaged in a transaction to say hello to his rebbe. The "hello" is a change of subject b'poel from whatever the person was engaged in.

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  3. jewinjerusalem6:24 PM

    I'll have to see the Chayei Adam inside. Meanwhile, I remember that if one forgot hamelech hakadosh then if he begins the next bracha we do NOT allow him to fix it toch kdei dibbur. What does the Chayei Adam rule there?
    The Ra"n in Nedarim (87a -I think) holds its de'oraisa! I have to think how his sevara there impacts this discussion. What do you think?

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  4. By hamelech hakadosh the Chayei Adam says you can be chozer tok"d (24:10).
    I was also thinking about whether this issue is impacted by the machlokes R"T (who holds tk"d is derabbanan) and the Ran, but have not come up with a connection. If you think of one, please let me know!

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  5. I want to re-raise the subject of TKD WRT hasra'ah. I doubt that can be explained as a din derabbanan to allow people to greet their rebbe -- while going off to do something punishable.

    -micha

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  6. Micha, the achronim discuss your kashe. See the Divrei Yechezkel #27 for a nice approach. Maybe fodder for another posting after clearing through the latest round of topics!

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  7. Anonymous11:56 AM

    The Mishna Berurah (siman 206, s'if koton 12) says that any speech is considered a hefsek. TKD is only an issue for remaining quiet for that length of time.

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