Friday, June 19, 2009

tzitzis on shabbos (II)

I think the best answer to the question raised in the previous post (which I think Akiva aimed at in his comment) is that in the case of cotton the Chachamim declared the garment to be a garment which is obligated in tzitzis. In the case of sfeika d'oraysa l'chumra: 1) the Rabbinic mitzvah to fulfill a safeik Torah obligation is not a halacha in hilchos tzitzis, but an independent chiyuv on the person; 2) that obligation does not transform the status of the garment, as the safeik remains; it simply obligates the gavra.

If you would like a chakirah that gets to the heart of the matter: is sfeika d'oraysa l'chumra a siman that extends the original chiyuv to cases of safeik or is it a new independent obligation.

14 comments:

  1. I would say that this depends on the machlokes, discussed at length in the Shev Shmatsa, whether Asham Talui needs ischazeik issura.

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  2. Isn't it a machlokes between the rashba and rambam whether safeik diorasa lechumra is dirabanan or dioraysa?

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  3. Yes. Chaim alluded to the machlokes in the last paragraph of the original post. But besides that, there is a machlokes whether a person who is over on a safek de'oraysa is only chayav an asham talui when there was definitely issur here, or even if there is a safek whether there was ever issur there at all. The Shmaitsa, at one point, wants to say that the logic of only being mehayev by ischazek issura is that the ischazek makes it as if the din issur of the cheftzeh is present, not stam that you have to be machmir.

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  4. Within the Rashba's shitah that safeiq deOraisa lechumra is deOraisa (and thus sefeiq sefeiqa is a kind of rov), there is a second chiluq possible: Does a derabbanan create a chalos of issur, or is it pragmatic requirements -- good things to do to avoid real damage? IOW, does owf bachalav cause timtum haleiv? And does observing shemittah derabbanan come with a berakhah?

    I blogged about this after listening to a relavant shiur by R' Rakeffet, although my version contains much of my own speculation.

    -micha

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  5. This issue is discussed by R' Shimon Shkop in Sha'rei Yosher at length.

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  6. As I said in that blog entry. It was much of what I added to RARR's shiur.

    I suggested that leshitos RSS, safeiq derabbanan lequlah was because they were only gozeir safeiq de'oraisa lechumrah on all mitzvos except lo sasur.

    -micha

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  7. could you please tell us where in siman 9 exactly it say that you can wear a garment that is only miderabonon on shabbos ? looked in siman 9 could not find it.
    and also looked in siman 13 about the safek,could not find it either.

    chaim

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  8. 9:1 tells you that cotton is derabbanan. My mistake - the case of safeik is 10:7. The Pri Megadim that puts them together is the first one in siman 13. Sorry for the error.

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  9. Reb Elchonon also talks about dinim derabanan, e.g. about lulav on sukkos, whether you're being mekayeim a din lulav or the din of lo sasur.

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  10. By the way, nobody had anything to say about my comment in Tzitzis Iwhether a woman may wear a beged metzuyetzes in the street on Shabbos? I thought it was a marvelous chkira. AND...if you hold no, then there's a good reason to not have women wear talleisim in shul on Shabbos, since it's assur to go outside with them on.

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  11. Patience : )

    The Ra'avad holds that a woman can wear tzitzis of kilayim because the kiyum mitzvah is enough to be doche the lav. Why would you not say your sevara that only if the garment cannot be worn without it do the tzitzis matter? Also, the R"I holds you can put on a 4 cornered garment on Shabbos and if it doesn't have tzitzis, at that point you are ones. According to your sevara you can't wear a garment of 4 corners w/o tzitzis? (Not sure about this second kashe.)

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  12. Barzilai10:51 PM

    You know, I always thought we held like that R'i about ones, but I saw the Aruch Hashulchan says we don't pasken like that, and you can't wear a untzitzised daled kanfos on Shabbos.

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  13. The Rama in siman 13 paskens like the R"I, no? Does the A.H. disagree with the Rama?

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  14. Anonymous2:16 PM

    Rav Baruch Mordechai Ezrachi Shlita in his seger Birchas Mordechai discusses this at lenghth.

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