Sunday, April 03, 2011

tefilah b'tzibur for a katan

My son asked the following: if a katan comes late to minyan, what should he do? The mitzvah of chinuch is to teach a katan to perform mitzvos in the same manner as he would as a gadol. Do we say that since a gadol would skip pesukei d'zimra to catch up and daven shmoneh esrei with the tzibur, a katan should do the same, or do we say that since a katan does not yet have a chiyuv / mitzvah of tefilah b'tzibur, therefore it would be better for him not to skip and instead to daven the usual davening in order? Also, perhaps one could argue that the katan should perform the mitzvah according to the normal or usual format that a gadol follows -- i.e. tefilah in the normal order -- not the way the gadol would perform the mitzvah given the exceptional circumstance of coming late to shul.


  1. Anonymous11:50 AM

    if that katan would be needed to make ten (permitted according to some) AND that minyan were starting
    exceptionally late, such that
    they'd miss zman krias shema/
    zman tefilla without a "group" exclusion of pesukei d'zimra (AND
    so doing), would we not have an answer in concrete terms?

  2. Anonymous8:52 PM

    very interesting question. i know where to look for this, but dont have the energy to. first impressions are- to say psukei dzimra after-a chiger sheyachol lehitpashet lmaskana is patur from riyah. bc in this exact situation a gadol would be patur, even though this katan it is shayach for him chinuch when he gets older, as rashi and tos. explain that tzad, but lmaskana hes patur, bc you always look at the gadol.

  3. Surely the purpose of chinuch is to be margil a koton in doing what they will be chayav to do when they are a godol?

  4. Anonymous6:51 PM

    not pashut pc

  5. I was thinking a similar case would be a katan who eats on Yom Kipur and is smart enough to be able to say kiddush for himself -- do we say that if he was a gadol capable of fasting he would not say kiddush on this day, so there is no chiyuv m'din chinuch for him to say kiddush, or do we say that just like a gadol who has to eat must say kiddush (you could argue, but kim li like those poskim for the same of this example), so too this katan must say kiddush.

    I'm also too lazy to look around and I just haven't had time, but I thought the question was too good not to mention.

  6. the Avnei Nezer did not make kiddush on Yom Kippur as a koton becuase he wouldn't be eating as a godol (I don't think this is muskam lekulei alma)

    rb akiva eiger says a koton who becomes bar mitzva during the omer should continue with a berachah as it would be un-chinuch to tell him before he was not doing the mitzvah

    anyway according to these opinions the focus seems to be on the hergel as a godol and does not follow the halachah for the situation of the katan