Before getting to what I think the answer might be, a few
other side issues. My son and others objected that we see from many gemaras that chinuch is only a din
derabbaban, e.g. a katan she’higiya l’chinuch cannot be motzi a gadol who has a
chiyuv d’oraysa because the katan’s chiyuv is only derabbanan. I don’t
think this is a problem. The Meshech
Chochma is not talking about the *katan’s* chiyuv – he is talking about the *father’s*
chiyuv to educate his children. Different thing entirely.
Secondly, the Ms”C is halacha, not derush, as there are real
nafka minos involved. The Meshech
Chochma holds that chinuch applies to both boys and girls since the pasuk uses
the word “beiso,” which is inclusive of all members of the family. See Nazir 29 and the Achronim on OC 343 for a
discussion of whether this is true.
As far as my question goes, kushya m’ikara leisa, the
question is not really a question. What I
have to say is completely based on ch 6 of Rav Kopperman’s introduction (“Pninei
Meshech Chochma) to the new edition of the Meshech Chochma and you are better
off seeing his words than mine if you have access to it. The issue I raised is based on my confusing a
question of history with a question of textual meaning. The Rambam in the Peirush haMishnayos is
dealing with a historical question: when did bris milah or gid ha’nasheh become
a mitzvah – when it was commanded to Avraham or Ya’akov, or later, at
Sinai? The Rambam answers that
historically, there were no binding commandments until Sinai. However, once the historical event of mattan
Torah happened and we were given Torah and mitzvos, that entire corpus of Torah
text that we were given, from Braishis to the very end, is fair game to be used
as halachic source material, with one caveat: the text had to be written for that
purpose. Rules like “ain lemeidim m’kodem
mattan Torah,” (Tos Moed Mattan 20a d"h "mah") the principle that halacha cannot be learned from pre-mattan
Torah episodes, have nothing to do with the historical causality of mitzvos
(the Rambam’s issue). That principle is a
textual rule of thumb – since the majority of the Torah text in Braishis is meant as narrative, it is generally not good source material for
law -- it was not written for the purpose of teaching us law. However, even in sefer Braishis, where
the text drops the narrative mode, switches gears and uses legal mitzvah terminology,
e.g. the parsha of milah by Avraham, those sections are fair game for deriving
halacha. Furthermore, even in a narrative section,
where the pesukim use irregular expressions that suggest diyukim that have
halachic import, even these pesukim are fair game for deriving halacha.
So to answer my question, the Rambam is telling us that until the
historical event of mattan Torah, there was no mitzvah of chinuch, of bris
milah, of gid ha’nasheh. The Meshech
Chochma is telling us that now that post-Sinai we have a text of Torah, under the right conditions even
pesukim that appear in narrative sections, pesukim like “ki yidativ…,” can have
halachic import.
Nice. Would this explain לא יעשה כן במקומינו which became a minhag not to let the younger daughter marry before the older daughter? Also, milah is repeated, gid hanasheh isn't. Also hilchos poalim from Yaakov.
ReplyDeleteNice. Would this explain לא יעשה כן במקומינו which became a minhag not to let the younger daughter marry before the older daughter? Also, milah is repeated, gid hanasheh isn't. Also hilchos poalim from Yaakov.
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you'll still see this but I think that if you check the rambam aveilus 1:1 its clear that he understood the yerushalmi of ein lemedin m'kodem limattan torah not as a textual issue but as a substantive issue - which I am afraid seriously undermines a major portion of this thesis.
ReplyDeleteHow does it affect his thesis? 7 days of aveilus from Yaakov is a detail, not the command. Rambam himself says the source of aveilus is a psuk in SHmini, which was after matan Torah!
DeleteThe Geonim who say aveilus shiva is min hatorah, they learn the Yerushlami that says "ulemeidin davar min kodem matan Torah" is a statement, not a question as the meforshei yerushalmi say (I heard that from Rav Ahron Soloveichik in a yahrzeit shiur. I think he also published it in HTC's journal Ulpena around 1970)
Say better: something is a mitzvah because it was given at Har Sinai. The pasuk teaching us the mitzvah can be from before matan Torah.
ReplyDeleteProof 1: Where is isur gid hanashe written in Torah after Gid Hanashe? Nowhere. But it was given to Moshe at Sinai.
Semi proof 2: some dinim of shabbos were given in Beshalach, before matan Torah (maybe aseh of tishbos, maybe even hotzaa [maybe that's why hotzaa is melacha geruah, given before sinai], see kli chemdah, and even you talked about it http://divreichaim.blogspot.com/2011/01/definition-of-melaches-shabbos-at-marah.html
Semi proof 3: hilchos korban pesach are written in Bo. (Yes, there are differences between pesach mitzrayim and pesach doros as the Tosefta lists, and secondly, in Behaaloscha it says v'yaasu es hapasach b'moado which you can claim shows the mitzva, though you can argue and say that was hostory, not chiyuv)