Monday, October 11, 2021

true information, false conclusion?

I saw an ad in a newspaper signed by a bunch of doctors advocating vaccines for everyone, including youth.  In one of their bullet points they say that the dangers of Covid to young people far outweigh the reported side effects of the vaccine.

I think this is an example of true information being used to advance a questionable conclusion.

There are two problems with the argument:

1) It confuses relative risk with absolute risk.

If a contractor were to offer to sell you a home upgrade that reduces the potential damage stemming from a tornado by 99%, you might still turn down the improvement.

But why?  Are you anti-protecting your home from tornado damage?

Of course not.  But here in NY the chance of your home being damaged by a tornado is so small that the advantage being offered is of little value. 

The 99% figure is relative risk; you need to look at absolute risk.  If the odds of tornado damage are a million to one, reducing those odds to a billion to one, a huge relative decrease, has no value because a million to one odds is something we can happily live with.  

So too with vaccines.  The odds of a child suffering death or serious illness from Covid is very, very small.  Even if vaccines reduce that risk further, that does not mean the vaccine is necessary or worth it.  

2) But what can it hurt?  To use my analogy, let's say the contractor was willing to install the upgrade to your home at no cost to you.  Why not do it?

And so the contractor installs a 5 ton piece of machinery on your roof at no cost and with no downside... until 10 years down the road and your roof needs to be replaced before anyone else's because the weight has unexpectedly caused it to buckle.  And 15 years later the foundation on the side of your house the machine was installed on starts to settle faster.  And then you go back to the contractor and he pleads innocence because he did his due diligence at the time of installation and these outcomes years later were entirely unexpected.  Besides which, his company was granted immunity from lawsuits by the gvt.

There are no long term studies of the effects of these new vaccines.  Could be there will be no problems down the road.  Could be there will be.  I don't know.  I don't know how your doctor can know.  Does the benefit warrant the risk?  

I think people tend to confuse knowledge with judgment.  A doctor has much greater knowledge of medicine than the lay person, but being qualified to diagnose and treat illness is not the same as being qualified to weigh risks and benefits and conclude with certainty which course of action is best.  

Only engineers, for example, have the technical know-how to build a bridge from point A to point B, but I hardly think that means only engineers are qualified to asses whether it is worth it for a city to invest in actually doing so.   

Lastly, in all discussions of this type one cannot avoid the issue of trust.  Do you trust what the government or big pharma tells you about these vaccines?  (Your local doctor takes marching orders/gets his or her knowledge from the FDA, CDC, local health authorities.  He/she is not an independent research lab.)

Just last week the President announced that, "“You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”  This is a lie.  

Just last week emails from a Senior Director of Pfizer were revealed stating, "“The risk of communicating this [the use of fetal cells in testing the vaccine] right now outweighs any potential benefit we could see, particularly with general members of the public who may take this information and use it in ways we may not want out there.” 

In other words, we at Pfizer can choose what to reveal to the public and what not to reveal based on what they perceive to be the risk or benefit to our agenda.  Given statements like these, it is hardly conspiracy theorists alone who begin to wonder what else they are not telling us.

Scary stuff.  Not to mention the heavy handed censorship across the board, on social media, in the main stream media, etc. of all views (including those of doctors) that deviate from the approved orthodoxy regarding treatment of covid and vaccines, the labelling of people who dare raise questions as anti-vaxxers, and so on.  

I am not saying not to get your child vaccinated.  I am not saying you should. I am saying it is a decision that needs to be carefully considered and is far less black and white than these type ads lead one to believe.

11 comments:

  1. >The odds of a child suffering death or serious illness from Covid is very, very small.
    Yes, but the risks of the vaccine are even smaller.
    Also, vaccination children isn't only about protecting them but the adults they live with. A child with the CoVID virus might not get sick but would still be contagious, which means adults around him or her would be at risk of catching it. Vaccination children is just as much about limiting community spread.
    >There are no long term studies of the effects of these new vaccine
    In over 200 years of using vaccines, all the ones that caused problems did so within 2 months of mass administration. Two months. Any that didn't cause a problem by then never did. Is it possible this vaccine will cause problems down the road? If you know how they work then you know the answer is: no. The vaccine doesn't produce any permanent chances to your body. After 6-8 months it starts to lose effectiveness and we anticipate it will eventually fade away so boosters will be needed. There is no risk that 5 years down the road something will come back to haunt us.
    > but being qualified to diagnose and treat illness
    Um yes, the two are the same. Diagnosis requires judgement. Patients don't walk in with a label. A doctor needs to consider the options and judge which one is most likely. Risks and benefits calculations are part of any treatment plan.
    > Do you trust what the government or big pharma tells you about these vaccines?
    I trust published data because otherwise there would be no treatments for any major conditions. All those blood pressure, diabetes and cancer drugs? You could make the same argument. People don't walk into their cardiologist and say "How can you trust anything you're giving me? How do you know the data are any good? Maybe it was all manipulated by Big Pharma!" And yet with this vaccine, suddenly everyone is a conspiracy expert.
    >“You’re not going to get COVID if you have these vaccinations.”
    Yes, and the lesson is: don't trust a dementing old man who falls asleep during meetings. Trust your physician whose done his research on the subject.
    > we at Pfizer can choose what to reveal to the public
    In this specific case, it's because using foetal cells raises uses of abortion. Pro-lifers might now refuse the vaccine.
    Everyone that can needs to get vaccinated. That this is even a topic of controversy is actually proof that vaccination works. Otherwise you'd know a bunch of people deformed by polio and killed by tetanus and you wouldn't be making all these arguments.

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    1. >>>which means adults around him or her would be at risk of catching it.

      If those adults are vaccinated and the vaccine works, then what are they afraid of?

      And if those adults are especially at risk even with the vaccine, then does that automatically mean they have a right to force every parent to put their child at risk of future long term side effects just so they can feel safer?

      >>>200 years of using vaccines

      200 years of using mRNA vaccines?

      >>>all the ones that caused problems did so within 2 months of mass administration. Two months.

      The Moderna vaccine has been in use for longer than that here in the US where it is still given to anyone over 18, yet countries in Europe just stopped its use for those <30 years old because they no longer consider it safe. Are they being excessively cautious, or are accepting too much risk? Do you claim to know the answer to that question?

      >>>There is no risk that 5 years down the road something will come back to haunt us.

      You can think of NO drug that was approved as safe with no anticipated long term side effects that later had to be pulled from use?

      >>>Diagnosis requires judgement.

      Never said it doesn't. But just because you have no choice other than to trust your doctor in to make a diagnosis means you have to hand off all decisions regarding care to him/her.

      >>>All those blood pressure, diabetes and cancer drugs? You could make the same argument.

      The risk of death from leaving a cancer, or diabetes, or high blood pressure untreated far exceeds the likelihood of a child dying of Covid. This is why my post specifically addresses vaccine use in children, not vaccine use by a 80 year old who is likely to die from Covid if they contract the illness.

      >>>And yet with this vaccine, suddenly everyone is a conspiracy expert.

      Because in this case the demonization of opponents, the censorship, the lies, and politics stare one in the face. If the date is so compelling, then let the data speak for itself.

      >>>Trust your physician whose done his research on the subject.

      Or do some research yourself.

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    2. I think that the strongest point DrMike makes, and I thank him for pointing it out, is that if the immune response fades with time, to the extent that the vaccine might lose reliable effectiveness after 6-8 months, then the concerns about unexpected consequences appearing a year or two down the line fades as well.
      To me, the scary aspects of the vaccine were reports of bell's palsy (which I have seen in none friend, BH he's better now,) effects on menstruation, possible diminished fertility, increased risk of diabetes caused by attack on pancreatic cells, and myocarditis. I have no interest in arichus yamim, but I really would not want to be a permanent invalid. But I think that these concerns are all either immune response problems or inflammatory problems - and, as DM pointed out, if the immune response is evanescent, there is no reason to worry that these problems will pop up two years from now.

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    3. FDA's press release (https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine):

      "Information is not yet available about potential long-term health outcomes. "

      I don't think the FDA would ever approve ANY drug where they thought there might be long term side effects. But lmaaseh, it's happened. I'm sure in all those cases there were wonderful sevaras in advance why it should never be the case, but reality has a way of proving the best of sevaras wrong. Donald Rumsfled warned to beware not only of the known unknows, but also the unknown unknowns.

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  2. I'm willing to put my science education up against yours and see who wins.

    >If those adults are vaccinated and the vaccine works, then what are they afraid of?
    No vaccine is 100% safe. You're protected but not bullet proof.

    >And if those adults are especially at risk even with the vaccine, then does that automatically mean they have a right to force every parent to put their child at risk of future long term side effects just so they can feel safer?
    The risk of the child getting seriously ill from CoVID is far lower and the risk of reaction to the vaccine is far lower than the risk of breakthrough infection in the adult.

    >200 years of using mRNA vaccines?
    Fine, 20 years of those, 200 years in general.

    > Are they being excessively cautious, or are accepting too much risk? Do you claim to know the answer to that question?
    Yup. The press and politics spoil anything. 1 person in a million gets a bad reaction and the press plays it like people are dropping in the streets so governments yanked it to avoid controversy and argument.

    >You can think of NO drug that was approved as safe with no anticipated long term side effects that later had to be pulled from use?
    No vaccine has. Do you even know how vaccines work?

    > But just because you have no choice other than to trust your doctor in to make a diagnosis means you have to hand off all decisions regarding care to him/her.
    Give your doctor the same respect you give your rebbe. If you had a shailoh would you lead with "Now, I've done my research and this is the answer to the question but I just want to hear what you have to say"?

    > This is why my post specifically addresses vaccine use in children, not vaccine use by a 80 year old who is likely to die from Covid if they contract the illness.
    The point of vaccinating kids is to protect adults. Besides, the logic works both ways. If you think Modern's vaccine is unsafe because 1 in a million have a serious reaction, well the rate of serious illness from CoVID in kids is way higher than that so you should be pushing for vaccinations.

    > Because in this case the demonization of opponents, the censorship, the lies, and politics stare one in the face. If the date is so compelling, then let the data speak for itself.
    And it does. Vaccines are safe and effective.

    >Or do some research yourself.
    Again, when's the last time you took a post-secondary course in science or how to conduct scientific research?

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  3. > the scary aspects of the vaccine were reports of bell's palsy (which I have seen in one friend, BH he's better now,)
    Can you prove it was from the vaccine? Association does not equal causation.
    > effects on menstruation,
    A lie
    > possible diminished fertility
    A slander started by a disgruntled employee
    >, increased risk of diabetes caused by attack on pancreatic cells
    Nope. Doesn't go near the pancreas.
    >, and myocarditis
    From which, so far, everyone has recovered without complications.

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  4. I get annoyed when people say "I'm not a poseik, but..." They should stop talking after the "poseik." I understand that insamuch as my professional credentials comprise only injecting and beheading hamsters in a Hopkins summer bio lab I am not entitled to an opinion. But if certainty were necessary to make life decisions, none of us would ever get married.
    I can't prove causation from one friend. But from the CDC - One case of Bell’s palsy in the vaccine group was considered a serious adverse event. Currently available information is insufficient to determine a causal relationship with the vaccine.
    Pancreas: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/6/576/htm Yes, I know it was ONE 96 year old woman.
    Menstrual changes: https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/do-covid-vaccines-affect-menstruation/
    Also, from https://www.axios.com/covid-vaccines-infertility-misinformation-bb441474-dd8e-4699-9983-bc3bf721e9f2.html this: A CDC scientist tells Axios "there is absolutely no evidence" that the altered periods reported by some are causing infertility, a common refrain among anti-vaxxers.
    Also this: https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/do-covid-vaccines-affect-menstruation/
    It stands to reason that IF the vaccine has an effect, albeit temporary, on menstruation, it might have some effect, whether positive or negative, on fertility.
    Myocarditis fatality: https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-reports-death-woman-after-pfizer-covid-vaccine-2021-08-30/

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  5. Again, there are rules. When you vaccinate ten million people and someone has a heart attack, then people rush to say "See? See! The vaccine causes a heart attack!" Truth is, if you take 10 million people and follow them for 2 weeks, let alone a month or two, someone's going to have a heart attack. Someone else will have a stroke. Someone will have an irregular period. Because that's what happens.
    That's why you need well-done studies, not anecdotes. It's the anecdotes that have no scientific value that are gumming things up right now.

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    1. DrMike, forgive me for asking, but are you a physician? My wife's license plate says Dr Malk, saved me from a speeding ticket once, and her doctoral thesis was her annotation of George Lewes' diary. It is an excellent thesis, and I am proud of her, but it did not lend her opinions about medicine and biology more credibility.

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    2. Yup, I'm a physician.

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  6. This was the most entertaining back and forth on here in a while and it brought a smile to my face.- Rischa d'Medicine! Yasher Koach to all the participants.

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