Friday, April 11, 2008

siyum on ta'anis bechorim (II)

Shu”t Arugas haBosem (#139) writes that a siyum on ta’anis bechorim is not a way to avoid the fast or be doche the fast because of a seudas mitzvah, but the siyum is a kiyum of the fast! Since the whole point of ta’anis bechorim is to mark the nes of the Jewish bechorim being saved while the Egyptian bechorim perished, the very fact that one schedules a siyum for that specific date marks it as significant and celebrates the nes.

To answer the question posed yesterday – if a milah occurs on Ta’anis Esther which is mukdam, the Rama paskens to fast on Friday because the milah is doche the chiyuv ta’anis but does not cancel it. If a siyum is made on ta’anis bechorim there is no need to fast on Friday because the siyum fulfills the inyan of the ta’anis and there is no need for a makeup.


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  2. I thought you were going to say that the difference is this: we seem to pasken that by a bris, the baalei bris are allowed to eat and don't have to be mashlim; the only ones that have to be mashilm are the outsiders, who are only attending in order to enhance the simcha of the baalei bris. By a siyum, on the other hand, we all are the ba'alei simcha, and not outsiders.
    Why are we more baalei simcha by a siyum than by a bris?
    Because the simcha of a bris is not that he is a mahul; it is on the maaseh milah that was done. Where there is a father, the chiyuv is only on the father. But by a siyum, the simcha is on the limud hatorah, and we all are chayov in limud hatorah-- lilmod and le'lameid.

  3. Two problems: 1) By bris even the sandek is included. 2) By siyum many achronim limit the # of outsiders - take a look by shavu'a she'chal bo. Just because we are all chayav in limud hatorah doesn't mean anyone can show up and start eating (even though l'ma'aseh that's what is done on ta'anis bechorim).

  4. Anonymous2:45 PM

    Dont you think its difficult to say that a siyum is mikayem the fast?

  5. Yes, but I think it's a creative point and sharp. Whether it is right or wrong I'll leave for you to decide.

  6. I just saw the Mikra'ei Kodesh, from Rav Frank et fil, talks about this; Pesach II siman 22 (page 82). He brings one opinion that explains that on a normal taanis, if you accidentally eat during the day, it's still asur to eat the rest of the day, because there are two dinim: Mitzvas Taanis and Issur Achila. Eating will irreparably end the former, but the latter remains in force. Taanis Bechoros, he says, is only a Mitzvas Taanis, not an issur achila.

    He himself explains that any taanis that is only a minhag was instituted only such that there is no minhag to fast when there is a seudas mitzvah.

  7. Anonymous2:52 AM

    וְהַשָּׂעִיר, אֲשֶׁר עָלָה עָלָיו הַגּוֹרָל לַעֲזָאזֵל.
    The Ibn Ezra says on this Posuk
    כי המשתלח איננו קרבן, כי לא ישחט, ואם יכולת להבין הסוד, שהוא אחר מלת עזאזל, תדע סודו
    The Chasam Sofer says if you take it at its literal level you can actually see the secret of the שָּׂעִיר לַעֲזָאזֵל.When you take the Letters after the word עֲזָאזֵל you get the letters
    פ-ח-ב-ח-מ.The significance of these letters lies even deeper you add up the numerical value of the letters you get 138.What then is the significance of 138? Pesach is the significance as 138 equals חמץ. Then now we have it .What is the secret of the שָּׂעִיר לַעֲזָאזֵל it is חמץ which everyone knows represents the Yetzer Hara.

  8. Anonymous4:10 AM

    The rest says
    ואני אגלה לך קצת הסוד ברמז בהיותך בן שלשים ושלש תדענו".
    so when you look 33 posukim later
    it says ולא יזבחו עוד את זבחיהם לשעירים
    Refering to SHaydim sacrifices

  9. >>>because there are two dinim: Mitzvas Taanis and Issur Achila. Eating will irreparably end the former, but the latter remains in force. Taanis Bechoros, he says, is only a Mitzvas Taanis, not an issur achila.

    I like the Arugas haBosem better than this! Isn't ta'anis by definition an issur achila? M'heica teisi l'chaleik?

  10. First of all, as soon as you have 'two dinim,' it's automatically better. Second, the fact is that on a regular taanis, if you eat by mistake or for choli, you still have to not eat the rest of the day. But if you were mekabeil taanis because of a neder to fast one day, and you ate, you can eat the rest of the day and be mashlim some other time. So you see that there are two dinim-- a general issur achila, and a sheim taanis.

  11. I don't buy it at all. When you were mekabeil ta'anis and ate, your ta'anis is gone. That's why you need to make it up some other time. And since it is gone, keep eating. By a ta'anis tzibur it is not in your power to reschedule.

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  13. Did you post twice to make fun of my statement that anything with two dinim is already better?

  14. no, just hit the post button 2x. removed one.

  15. Anonymous10:02 PM

    nowadays all taaneisim have a din of taanis yachid. would that mean that if one eats on taanis esther, one can resechedule?