“I’m pretty traditional,” Hurwitz admitted drolly with a faint South African
accent. “I know halacha. I keep halacha very carefully. I have tremendous
emunah. I can’t convince somebody else that I really am Orthodox and that Rabbi
Weiss is really Orthodox. The only way is for somebody to realize it themselves.
And they’ll realize it.”“All I’m doing is teaching Torah. Learning Torah. Helping people in their difficult times and their happiest times; and through Yeshiva Maharat I’m helping others learn to do the same.”
Just wanted to point it out in case you missed it amidst all the mud-slinging over what her title should be. If you take the issue of what to call her off the table, there is nothing not to applaud here (and yes, I realize that the "what to call her" is a big issue placed on the table by her and Rabbi Weiss' deliberate choice).
Having had to decide on a H.S. for my eldest daughter recently, I can tell you one of the issues that my wife and I repeatedly have discussed is the neither-here-nor-there attitude towards girls' education. On the one hand, schools have to go through the motions of really teaching something; on the other hand, no school (neither on the right or left) really aims to produce a girl who will spend her free time immersed in a sefer. People live up to the exectations set. Women will by and large spend their leisure time (which modern society allows for more of than any other point in history) immersed in the latest sheitel ads rather than immersed in Rashi, halacha, or other limudim. Is that better than doing what Maharat/Rabbah Hurwitz does with her time?
no school (neither on the right or left) really aims to produce a girl who will spend her free time immersed in a sefer.
ReplyDeleteWho says that a girl spending her time "immersed in a sefer" is a laudable goal? Given that women are pattur from Talmud Torah, why is that something that the educational system should encourage?
Women will by and large spend their leisure time (which modern society allows for more of than any other point in history) immersed in the latest sheitel ads rather than immersed in Rashi, halacha, or other limudim.
Talk about beating up on a straw man. Are those the only two choices -- being a lamdan, or being immersed in gashmius?
How about focusing on the mitzvos and parts of the Torah woman are obligated in -- chessed, tefillah, middos, shemiras ha lashon, yiras shomayim, ahavas Hashem? (Not to mention raising a family -- which Chazal say is the reason women are pattur from so many mitzvos). (And of course halakha le maaseh for those mitzvos incumbent on women, which are many.)
There were and are plenty of Nashim tsidkoniyus who focus on these without being either lamdanistes or immersed in gashmiyus. That should be the goal of an educational system.
>>>Who says that a girl spending her time "immersed in a sefer" is a laudable goal?
ReplyDeleteDo I really need to defend learning Torah as a laudable goal? Afilu aku"m... is like a kohein gadol. Who doesn't want that?
>>>How about focusing on the mitzvos and parts of the Torah woman are obligated in -- chessed, tefillah, middos, shemiras ha lashon, yiras shomayim, ahavas Hashem?
And why not include avoiding plowing with shor v'chamor while you are at it. Shmiras halashon, tsniyus, midos, are by and large passive occupations defined by not behaving in a certain way. It's 10:00 at night, the GM'Ch is closed, supper is over, the dishes wahsed... pick up Mishpacha magazine for women, or a Tanach with Malbi"M? You tell me the better choice.
Intelligent people need a creative, intellectual outlet. None of the activities you mention provide one, at least not as a meaningful form of avodas Hashem. So you would rather have a women invest those kochos in becoming a lawyer or doctor than learn?
Except that girls have no chiyuv to learn. Yes, learning is more laudable than spending the time perusing sheitl ads. But what about the pursuits the holier of our greatgrandmothers would have spent the time doing -- saying tehillim, acts of chessed, etc...? You bought into the entire JOFA agenda when you assume that a woman's ideal expression of Judaism is the same as yours.
ReplyDelete-micha
>>>But what about the pursuits the holier of our greatgrandmothers would have spent the time doing -- saying tehillim, acts of chessed, etc...?
ReplyDeleteMicha, do you really think the world we live in is like that of our greatgrandmothers? Our greatgrandmothers were not doctors or lawyers, they needed every minute of their day to keep the house in order.... You are preaching horse and buggy talk to people who live in a world of racecars dream of rocket ships!
I assume that, like I do, many women have brains, interests, creative ambition. I assume that if told to get back in the kitchen and tend house they will feel frustrated and unfulfilled. Our choices are 1) try to stifle their brains and interests; or 2) direct it to a positive goal.
I take door #2.
No, this is not the JOFA agenda. I am simply advocating women fulfill they potential to the maximum allowed by halacha. Just learning Tanach, sifrei machshava, and halacha l'ma'aseh can keep a person busy for a few decades without even cracking open a gemara.
My great-grandmother was a very successful business woman who supported her Torah scholar husband. My grandmother was their only child who was well educated at the Jewish gymnasia in Lithuania. A basis in languages was a good thing for her, as she had to serve as rebbetzin in 3 different countries with more than 4 languages among them. She married at 18 and went on to have 10 children. Though she had not been trained in the arts of housekeeping, cooking, etc., she learned on the job and did quite well as a wife and mother. As I recall from my visits to her (at which time all her children were long married) she would recite tehillim, but she also would attend lectures and classes in college.
ReplyDeleteYou can keep your illusions of a tradition of blissfuly ignorant stay-at-home moms, or you can research what life really was like at the turn of the last century. There were differences in attitude and practice among the different European countries, and the American influence really was the one that painted the ideal of the lady of the house staying home. But a good place to begin to learn how it really was is the book World of OUr Mothers: The Lives of Jewish Immigrant Women by Sydney Stahl Weinberg.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePaula Hyman quotes a Dec. 3 1875 edition of the London Jewish Chronicle (801) that spoke against voting rights, advanced schooling, and jobs for women “on the grounds that ‘the glitter of the world’ diverted women from their most solemn, and apparently exclusive, task of guiding the moral and religious development of their children” (190). Likewise, in France in 1895, “the Archive israelites contended that women continue to be barred from synagogue administration because the natural forum for their religious influence was the home.”
ReplyDelete(from Hyman, Paula. “The Modern Jewish Family: Image and Reality.” The Jewish Family: Metaphor and Memory. Ed..David Kraemer. New York and Oxford: Oxford UP, 1989.179-198.p. 190)
In case you haven't noticed, it's not 1875 any more. It's not even 1975 any more. So get with the program, guys.
The question isn't whether the college educated woman should learn Torah. It's whether we want/need role models who make it the centerpiece of their avodas Hashem. Lemaaseh, they aren't mechuyavos in talmud Torah. Judaism for women isn't about learning. You're taking the icing and making it the cake.
ReplyDelete-micha
>>"Do I really need to defend learning Torah as a laudable goal? Afilu aku"m... is like a kohein gadol. Who doesn't want that?"
ReplyDeleteThere is no source anywhere that being ossek ba'torah as a means in itself - not to know halacha - is appropriate for ladies.
>>Micha, do you really think the world we live in is like that of our greatgrandmothers? Our greatgrandmothers were not doctors or lawyers, they needed every minute of their day to keep the house in order.... You are preaching horse and buggy talk to people who live in a world of racecars dream of rocket ships!
Does riding a spaceship make you a better person?????
>>In case you haven't noticed, it's not 1875 any more. It's not even 1975 any more. So get with the program, guys.
In the year 2010 the challenges to the purity of Jewish family life are so offensive that it certainly requires extreme intelligence, persistence and hard work to create the world apart of the Jewish home which is nonetheless able to interface successfully with society's social world and business dealings.
pc :-)
Tal,
ReplyDeleteWhy would the concept of women spending time immersed in a sefer (preferably halacha) not be a laudable goal ?
Is the talmudic passage in shabbas 127a gender specific ?
And don't men have the same "chessed, tefillah, middos, shemiras ha lashon, yiras shomayim, ahavas Hashem" obligations as women ?
pc,
you suggested
"There is no source anywhere that being ossek ba'torah as a means in itself - not to know halacha - is appropriate for ladies."
How would you define the talmudic passage shabbas 127a.
And how are you defining "torah".
Also,
are you suggesting that if the home bound housewives raise the level of purity in the household by dedicating themselves to full time motherhood wifery and cook, this would in turn raise the levels of purity for the husbands sense of worldliness when hes not home, as well ?
What era would you be referring to and on which planet.
jaded topaz
>>>There is no source anywhere that being ossek ba'torah as a means in itself - not to know halacha - is appropriate for ladies.
ReplyDeleteAs I indicated in my previous comment, just learning Tanach and halacha l'ma'aseh is enough to keep anyone busy for a few decades! Be that as it may, R' Solovetichik saw T"T as appropriate for women because you cannot expect women who receive a high level secular education to respect torah if you keep their knowledge limited to a kindergarten level. No, riding a spaceship does not build character, but people who dream of spaceships need more to inspire and challenge them than a kapitel tehillim.
>>>In the year 2010 the challenges to the purity of Jewish family life are so offensive that it certainly requires extreme intelligence, persistence and hard work to create the world apart of the Jewish home which is nonetheless able to interface successfully with society's social world and business dealings.
I could not agree with you more. Precisely because the challenges are so great, to expect anyone -- man or woman -- to meet them without limud haTorah is unrealisitic.
RCB,
ReplyDeleteI didn't see a reply to my question after I clarified it. It's one thing to laud women learning Torah. It's another to laud a woman who made Talmud Torah the centerpiece of her avodah as a role model.
But I didn't post just to repeat myself. I wanted to note something else.
It hit me -- each of us are praising the maalos of our respective wives. My eishes chayil lacks the desire to sit and learn, and expends her boundless energy running around doing gemach pickups much of the day, working on Jewish Adoption, etc... Your wife is a talmidah chakhamah, and you appreciate the value of that. BH!
-micha
No doubt about it, if Devorah were around today, she would be rejected and aspersion would be cast upon her motives. I guess people were more open-minded about women several thousand years ago than they are in modern times.
ReplyDelete>>>I didn't see a reply to my question after I clarified it.
ReplyDeleteThe short answer to your question: Yes, I am biased towards admiring people of intellect. It's a Litvishe Jewry thing.
The main answer was b'chlal my reply to PC. I think you are setting up a false dichotomy between chessed and Torah. Am I advocating women join a kollel and place their family burdens on their husband? Of course not. I am advocating, that women incorporate Torah into their life in addition to the many other things that they do because l'maaseh most women are filling their spare time with nahrishkeit in its place. Why not encourage tham to just do chessed and zug tehillim? Because that simply does not speak to people with intellect and ambition.
From the Jewiswh Observer's piece on Sarah Schenirer:
ReplyDeleteHer thirst for knowledge remained undiminished. She continued to study and to read. In truth, such was the case with many of her friends at the time. But there was one difference. Her friends were “immersed” in Polish novels; she was drawn to her father’s sefarim. She began to swallow every sefer which contained a Yiddish translation or commentary. The more deeply she probed her “new treasures,” the further removed she became from her friends. A new world opened for her.
(http://matzav.com/sarah-schenirer-ah-the-mother-of-the-bais-yaakov-movement-on-her-yahrzteit-today-26-adar)
Yesterday there was a lecture at the University. The topic: “The Finest of Polish Literature.” The room was crowded with Jewish girls. It is no one’s fault but our own that our girls attend secular schools and belong to organizations where all sorts of chillul Shabbos take place… My dear sisters, don’t you realize that secular studies have all the glitter of gold and all the utility of gold to the body? Think! Can gold satisfy a physical hunger? By the same token, a Jewish soul can never be satisfied from secular studies.
I am idealizing Beis Ya'akov as it should be!
I was just saying / assuming that having a rabbah as a role model whose constant learning is what you find inspirational shifts the learning vs chessed balance to a place the Torah might advise for men (at least, as Litvaks understand things) but not for women (as anyone does).
ReplyDeleteI have a few problems with the whole rabbah project. A couple of them are the drastic break in culture, which is a problem since halakhah relies on "mimetic tradition", as well as the disregard about making a move that splits the observant community.
But the biggest is that it reinforces for everyone -- men and women -- that Yahadus is about beis kenesses and beis medrash, and a person who seeks spiritual fulfillment ought to go there. As well as the lesson that being in the front of the shul is more religious than "besokh ami anokhi yosheves" -- or yosheiv -- but that, like my dirst two issues, is tangential to the discussion.
Yahadus is about being maqdish life, not retreating from it into the yeshiva halls. If you tell women they're right to feel starved, so we'll open the yeshiva halls to them to, who will carry forward that lesson?
And, what will satisfy women when they get past that plateau, when the rabbah with toreh toreh learns Choshein Mishpat? You're setting her up to seek her religious sustenance off a limited plate.
-micha
No doubt about it, if Devorah were around today, she would be rejected and aspersion would be cast upon her motives.
ReplyDeleteDevorah became a Nevioh by spinning the wicks for the Miskan (not learning)-hence her name Ashes Lapidoth.Alternatively she was called Ashes Lapidoth because of the advice she gave her unlearned husband, that he should light the candles for those going to learn, to share some of their S'char. That doesn't sound like today's educated women, to whom spinning wicks would be beneath them and who would thrown Lapidoth out on his head, blaming the Yeshivos and complaining how there are no men smart enough for me /my daughter.
Do you really think that Devorah's only redeeming quality was that she was able to tolerate having a husband who was an idiot or she became a shofetes without knowing any choshen mishpat?
ReplyDeleteI think you should blame it all on the Bais Ya'akov movement, which, as I illustrated above from the JO's description of Sarah Schenirer, has promulgated the crazy idea that women should learn something about Judaism.
You know, I never bought the argument that the greatness of Devorah was that she managed with an am ha'aretz husband. If that were the ideal, then Avigayil should have stuck by Naval instead of declaring "kishmo ken hu" when she brought the food he had not allowed David's men. It's just difficult to understand why she married him in the first place. Avigayil is one of the few women who makes both the nevios list (7)and the most beautiful list (4). She is also held up as a general paragon of a wife, for the expression that a king cannot exceed the limit of 18 invokes her name when explaining even a wife such as she. Her virtue clearly was not in finding redemption for her first husband.
ReplyDeleteI am just curious, do you have any sources that show she was knowledgeable in Choshen Mishpat (aka Torah shebaal Peh) and not just that she was a prophetess? If you do have something to point at I would love to know sources. If this is just how you feel then ok. But then my question to you is why do you believe women should not be Rabbis. Or maybe you do believe they should?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think a shofeit or shofetes' job was? K'shmo kein hu. See Tos. B.K. 15 who asks how Devorah could serve as shofetes when a woman cannot serve as a dayan.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, there are many other sources which indicate that certain women were knowledgeable in tsheb'ap. The most notable was Beruria, but there were others.
Thirdly, What does being a Rabbi have anything to do with being shofetes / paskening dinei mamonos? A blind person can't be a dayan, but can certainly be a Rabbi. Two different issues.
Aren't you a fan of R' Hershel Shachter? Read his explanation of the woman Rabbi issue: http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2004/parsha/rsch_dvorim2.html
I asked for your reasoning not his. So are you saying you hold like Rav Schechter or do you have another reason?
ReplyDeleteI know what he says on the subject, I have actually discussed it with him and heard two lectures by him on the subject. He mentioned Devorah specifically and explained why she was the exception.
Where does it say Beruriah learned seforim? I thought she just learned through osmosis. Like, her husband would tell her the halacha and she learned from her mother. You know, like Jewish women used to do in the olden days before the advent of bais Yaakov.
When you say this "Thirdly, What does being a Rabbi have anything to do with being shofetes / paskening dinei mamonos? A blind person can't be a dayan, but can certainly be a Rabbi. Two different issues." Are you trying to say that a woman should be able to be a Rabbi? I am just unclear about your point. Maybe you mean to just say that your post had nothing to do with the title Rabbi?
I actually have learned that tosfos and doesn't he say that she was able to be a shofetes because she was a prophetess. Doesn't that mean she didn't really learn the stuff herself, but G-D would tell her the proper halacha? I mean Tosfos says they accepted her because of the Shechina.
>>>I thought she just learned through osmosis.
ReplyDelete300 perakim through osmosis?!
>>>but G-D would tell her the proper halacha?
Lo bashamayim hi. And RYBS had a different teirutz to Tos. kashe.
The issue of smicha for Sarah Hurvitz is beina and Rabbi Weiss and is their business, not mine. If a shul wants to employ her, it's their business and my 2 cents won't make a difference. The debate is relevant only on an institutional level where organizations which have to grant "recognition" (or not do so) to Rabbinical candidates.
>>>>300 perakim through osmosis?!
ReplyDeleteWell let's see; all of hilchos shabbos she could learn from following around her mother. All of hilchos Tznius she could learn from following around her mother. All of hilchos kashrus she could learn from following around her mother. All of hilchos loshon hora she could learn from following around her mother. Want me to keep going?
>>>>>Lo bashamayim hi.
Tosfos says they relied on her because she had the shechina resting on her. Tosfos does not say she knew the halacha best.
The lo bashamayim hi is only used when there is a machlokes, notice all the cases that it is used in. If no one is arguing then we listen to G-D. It is kinda like when we listen to the Yerushalmi.
If you don;t want to answer the question about female Rabbis, you can just say you don;t want to discuss it and I will leave you alone. However, I do not think the debate is only relevant on an institutional level, but rather it is important in every Jews home.
Do you really think that Devorah's only redeeming quality was that she was able to tolerate having a husband who was an idiot or she became a shofetes without knowing any choshen mishpat?
ReplyDeleteNo, but these are the qualities about her that Chazel chose to stress and this is the reason they say she was zoche to Nevuah.
You know, I never bought the argument that the greatness of Devorah was that she managed with an am ha'aretz husband. If that were the ideal, then Avigayil should have stuck by Naval instead of declaring "kishmo ken hu" when she brought the food he had not allowed David's men.
Nobody would suggest that having an Am Haretz husband is ideal but presumably "kishmo ken hu" was the reason she left him.Had he been a sincere good person albeit unlearned, she very possibly would have stayed.
>>>she could learn from following around her mother
ReplyDeleteMefurash gemara that there was more to it than that. Pesachim 62
>>>Tosfos says they relied on her because she had the shechina resting on her.
Nope. Tosfos says that accepted her because of Shechina, i.e. it was a hora'as sha'ah -- not that she judged using nevuah.
>>>this is the reason they say she was zoche to Nevuah.
Ain ha'shechina shorah elah al chacham... etc. (Sh. 92). Note the first quality. There may be additional qualities which made devorah special.
>>>Nobody would suggest that having an Am Haretz husband is ideal
So why are you suggesting having an am ha'aretz wife is?
You've set up a false dichotomy between a husband or wife working toward's their own spiritual goals and helping others like their spouse reach theirs.
>>>it is important in every Jews home.
Not mine. My wife isn't studying for smicha and my Rabbi has not hired a Rabbah to help him.
Tosfos in Nida on daf Nun says as one of is answers that Devorah got the psak halacha straight from Hashem. Check out the Maharitz Chayos there or the levush siman 7 seif 20 Al Pi Hadibbur.
ReplyDeleteOr if you have a sefer hamafteach, just take a look at it. Oh and it specifically says why you shouldn't ask the question of lo bashamayim hee
By Beruriah it just says she learned 300 halachos or teachings in one day from 300 different Rabbis. Where does it say that this is a laudable goal.
ReplyDeleteI am not disagreeing with you here. I just wish you had some proof to back you up. Girls should learn, however, where do we see this idea anywhere in shas or poskim? Other than, of course, that women should know the halachas that they have to keep?
Where do we see that a girl should grab a sefer instead of looking at the sheitel section in mishpacha? I mean, I can point out several Gemorahs that say talking to a women is a waste of time and Pirkei Avos is probably the clearest, but I can't find any that say a girl should learn Torah in her free time. If you know of any that would be great. Heck if any of the Gedolim say it that would be great? KNow of any place where this is actually said?
>>>>Not mine. My wife isn't studying for smicha and my Rabbi has not hired a Rabbah to help him.
I am sorry, I didn;t realize you didn't care about the unity of klal Yisroel. I thought you did based on your post expressing anguish over the Our Poskim vs. Theirs. Where all that guy was saying that everyone deserves to follow their own poskim and should not be forced to follow the poskim that are referred to as the Gedolim or what not. Not that we shouldn;t respect everyone. Obviously, everyone should be respected, but I follow my Rav and you follow your Rav.
sorry, that was seif 5 not seif 20
ReplyDelete>>>Where do we see that a girl should grab a sefer instead of looking at the sheitel section in mishpacha?
ReplyDeleteResponded to this above and I'll repeat again that it is sad that anyone should even ask this. Even an aku"m who is osek b'torah can be like a kohen gadol. A woman certainly receives schar as an eino metzuveh v'oseh, and on top of that she gains the dveikus haneshoma reaped from learning (no worse than saying tehillim!). You get no schar for reading sheitel ads. There is no net gain for your neshoma. How can you even have a hava amina to equate them?
You missed the point of what I wrote about unity. The Shach and Taz argue all the time, but are united in the common bond of Torah. There was one question before them -- what does the Torah want? Rejecting poskim on the basis of their political views or ideology -- asking whether they are MO or not -- has nothing to do with Torah.
I think you are wrong about sheitel adds. A woman gets a lot of schar for picking out a sheitel that she will like to cover her hair with. She is fulfilling the mitzva of tznius. She is being oseik in that mitzvah as opposed to learning where she will get less char because she is not commanded to do so.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if she is just reading about gossip that might be true. However, the Rambam seems to say that lichatchila a woman should not learn even though she gets schar, just check out the first perek of hilchos talmud torah halacha 13.
Also, I think you miss the point of the whole Rabbis that are Modern Orthodox vs the Charadi Rabbonim. Let us ask, what makes a Charaidi Rabbi Charadi and a modern orthodox Rabbi modern? It has to do with their views on life and not their abilities as a poseik. This is the same difference as the Aruch hashulchan vs the mishna berurah. The aruch hashulchan was a community Rav and therefore had a much different outlook on life and came to a different conclusion than the mishna berurah. SO a person that lives as a baal habus and lives in a community would follow the Aruch hashulchan. The mishna berurah was a rosh yeshiva, so a yeshiva bochur would follow him. Both were tremendous talmidei chachamim, but the person who lives in a community with a family would follow the auruch hashulchan because they relate to the auruch hashulchan and he understands them. Whereas the mishna berurah relates to the yeshiva bochurs.
Who cares about the polotics, that is stupid, outlooks on life is what matters.
A doctor is not going to go to Rav Elyashiv for a psak on what to do because Rav elyashiv does not know how the machines work and what is involved with being a doctor. However, someone will go to Avraham ben Avraham, the one who wrote the medical halacha books because he himself is a doctor and understands all the details of being a doctor.
Or one could go to Rav Elyashiv, but he would have to have all the little details explained to him by someone else, relying on someone else to tell him how things work and could make a mistake based on someone else telling him the wrong information.
So too in life in general. How can a person in America follow Rav Elyashiv's psak halacha when there is no relationship with Rav Elyashiv. Rav elyashiv does not know this man's life or situations so how does Rav Elyashiv know what the proper psak is for this man?
In the end of the day everyone needs their own Rav because everyone is different and have different situations. Also, there are many great Rabbanim out there that argue about many different things. For instance, can one heat up cheese in a microwave, kasher it and then heat up meat? Some Rabbonim say yes and others say no. Who is right? Either, it depends on who you hold like. One needs to follow their own poseik and not someone that is called a Gadol in a different community.
People that feel more comfortable with the MO way of life, aka getting an education and a job, would rather follow poskim that are in that world. For instance, Rav Willig is a big poseik in the more MO/centrist orthodox circles. He gives psak halacha all the time. People follow him because they are part of his community, his talmidim or because he is one of the YU rosh yeshiva and that is the type of orthodoxy that one wants to practice. Should one who poskins like Rav Willig care that Rav Elyashiv argues with Rav Willig? No, because they poskin like Rav Willig. For all intents and purposes Rav Willig is the biggest Gadol for the people that follow him.