Tuesday, February 02, 2010

"our" poskim vs. "their" poskim?

A certain Rabbi writes on his blog that other "movements" have their poskim, past and present -- Rav Moshe, Rav Henkin, Rav Kook, Rav Aniner, Rav Asher Weiss, etc. (his examples) -- and he raises the question of who the leading posek for modern or centrist orthodoxy is since the passing of Rav Soloveitchik. B'mechilas kvodo, with no disrespect intended, I don't understand the question. Are achronim and gedolim to be defined by their belonging to a sociological or political faction and accepted/rejected on that basis? Is ideology now to be a determining factor in whether psak halacha is valid and authentic? While gedolim do not always share philosophical outlook, hashkafos, these differences do not effect their psak and should not effect our acceptance of psak any more than a mathematicians leanings in the realm of theory has an effect on the results of an equation.

I am troubled by this type of dialogue that emphasizes separateness -- our poskim vs. their poskim, our mesorah vs. their mesorah -- instead of the commonality of torah study. It’s one thing to dismiss it in the blogsphere, it’s another thing when even Rabbanim start speaking in those terms and accepting this imaginary dichotomy as real. Rav Moshe (for example) was not the posek of a particular community -- he was the posek of klal yisrael, just like R' Akiva Eiger, the Noda b'Yehudah, etc. The legacy of these poskim does not belong to a particular niche group or faction, but rather to every person who identifies as a ben torah, whether he be chassidic, litvish, modern orthodox, or religious zionist. That is not to say that one must follow every psak of R’ Moshe -- one does not follow every hora’ah of the Noda B’Yehudah. It means respecting the psak and ideas of gedolei hora’ah as relevant to one’s life, as worthy of study and consideration.

12 comments:

  1. If yiddishkeit was an ideology then the rambam and the geonim would be 2 religions. Yiddishkeit is adherence to the tarya"g mitzvos.

    pc :-)

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  2. If I knew who you were I'd give you a massive hug. This bothers me more than anything in frum Judaism. It is the same as Chassidim who only quote their Rebbe, Briskers who only quote Brisk etc

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  3. Anonymous10:56 AM

    R' Chaim,

    I read the blog post you are referring to as well, and I did not get the impression that the author's intent was to be divisive. I think he was highlighting a reality of the Jewish world as it is today.

    There are so many issues in today's Jewish world that are controversial, central and critical all at the same time. Issues such as the state of Israel & Zionism, Women's (halachically legitimate) involvement in Torah & community, views on internet use and modern technology, college education etc. are just a few examples of issues that Jews will approach very differently depending on their respective hashkafa.

    These differences of opinion present a very real struggle for the sincere Torah Jew - If (for example) a frum Israeli soldier has a question about a particular issue while in the army, he certainly would not feel comfortable approaching a posek who thinks that there should be no involvement in the army to begin with!

    My point is that these differences in worldview - while legitimate and healthy - create the necessity for individual Rabbinic leadership in each sect of Torah Yiddishkite.

    That being said, I could not agree more that talmidei chachamim of all stripes should be respected and revered by all Jews. Halivai that we should see improvements in this are across the Jewish spectrum.

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  4. Tal Benschar8:27 PM

    If (for example) a frum Israeli soldier has a question about a particular issue while in the army, he certainly would not feel comfortable approaching a posek who thinks that there should be no involvement in the army to begin with!

    Yet R. Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt"l and R. Ovadya Yosef, shlita, both known for their charedi hashkafas, nevertheless were recognized poskim who answered many shailos raised by soldiers and those serving in the IDF. That did not seem to bother the shoalim any.

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  5. Anonymous, I hear what you are saying and agree with your point, but I wonder how often the philosophical issues you mention come into play in everyday shaylos, e.g. hilchos Shabbos, taharas hamishpacha, pots and pans of yoreh de'ah, etc.

    My point was simply that that speaking in divisive terms creates (unintentionally perhaps) a license (reflected in the past in comments to posts here) to simply dismiss the other side's argument because of their political views instead of grappling with the underlying halachic issues.

    I find it interesting that some of the most prominant modern orthodox poskim, e.g. Rav Hershel Shachter, do not support women's minyanim and do not encourage women's involvement in torah sheba'al peh, just to take one of the issues you raise as critical to modern orthodoxy. Is there really such a clear line which differentiates poskim of different ideologies from each other?

    When there is a clash between what one ideologically hopes the halacha would allow and what a posek who is a yarei shamayim and talmid chacham actually allows, I wonder at what point one changes ideology and at what point one shops for a different posek. I don't have an easy answer to that question -- just thinking out loud.

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  6. there iss no r aniner

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  7. Chaim, You yourself hold of the idea of "our" poskim vs. "their" poskim, no?

    You wrote on Not Brisk

    "Chaim B. said...

    How can you cite this Rambam in Moreh about astronomy as a supportive source when the Rama in Toras ha'Olah (ch. 2) wrote regarding it, "V'yevahel hama'ayan lomar Chazal lo yad'u divreihem"?!
    (http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=35870&st=&pgnum=44)

    Are you championing a position which the Rama had "behala" from? If it's a choice of your judgment as to the correctness of such a hashkafa or that of the Rama, I'll take the Rama."

    Clearly you are taking one posek over the other, while the person you are responding to took the Rambam over the Rama. That is the epitomy of the case of "Our" poskim vs "their" poskim.

    A commenter over there even said,
    "If it's a choice of your judgment as to the correctness of such a hashkafa or that of the Rama, I'll take the Rama.

    How on earth does that make sense? You are criticizing Slifkin for choosing Rambam over Rama. But you are choosing Rama over Rambam! I might as well say, If it's a choice of your judgment as to the correctness of such a hashkafa or that of the Rambam, I'll take the Rambam!"

    Also, I think a comment that Dovi made in response to Not Brisk is very appropriate here as well.

    "Dovi said...

    NB said: Even if I conceed the sources, the question is how did Slifkin determine that Rav Hirsh was right?

    Dovi responded: How did you determine that Rav Hirsch was wrong and that his approach is treife?

    (Especially since most Rishonim seem to be on his side.)

    And how did Rav Hirsch determine that his approach was right? "

    All of this just shows you and your friend NB do hold of our poskim vs their poskim. So I do not understand how you can honestly question this idea.

    If I am wrong please let me know what you actually meant. However, it seems like you think some gedolim are to be taken over others, which goes against your whole post, no?

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  8. I think his real observation was that the reason the modern orthodox don't have a posek is because they're so busy learning about Hegel and Wittgenstein and history and protosemitic that they've developed a culture of "I'm proud to be an amoretz!" or being satisfied with a quality and quantity of knowledge that would be adequate in other fields of study and professions.


    Reminds me of those diagrams of pregnancy: in the first few months, the artists show the uterus, the intestines, the liver... as the months go by, they just sketch some little doodles that show where the other organs used to be before the expanding uterus took up all the space.

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  9. >>>Clearly you are taking one posek over the other, while the person you are responding to took the Rambam over the Rama.

    We rely on Achronim, not our own da'as, to interpret and be machriya between Rishonim, just like we rely on the gemara to interpret and be machriya between Tanaim, we rely on the Rishonim to me machriya and interpret gemara, etc.

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  10. The problem we all face is the nasty little secret that often lay leaders couldn't care less about Poskim.

    For example, I spent this past Shabbos in a community in which the lay leaders went against psakim of Reb Moshe in IgM OC 2:45 (they sold a shul to a church) and 2:46 (they closed shuls). They didn't ask sheilas. They didn't even ask the local rabbis (several of whom they fired in the course of closing the shuls).

    V'yesh l'ha'arich...

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  11. Huh? I don't get this post. Were you born yesterday? Rabbonim and roshei yeshiva have been dismissing other camps of Orthodoxy ever since I can remember. This is news to you? They've been "emphasizing separateness" ever since there was an "other" to separate from!

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  12. Anonymous3:54 AM

    "R' Aniner" --

    Probably R' Aviner.
    Less likely: R' Anemer.

    -Phil

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