Monday, October 04, 2010

interesting mashiv ha'ruach question

On Shmini Atzeres I went out to the lobby when yizkor was being said and I noticed that one of my daughters was still saying pesukei d’zimra because she came late (my daughters unfortunately think Shabbos and Sunday are sleep-in days). I realized that when we re-enter shul the gabai will announce that we should start saying mashiv ha’ruach u’morid hageshem in our tefilas musaf, but my daughter would hear that announcement before her tefilas shacharis. Question: having heard mashiv ha'ruach announced, must she now add mashiv ha’ruach in her tefilas shacharis?

I had somewhere in the neighborhood of five minutes at best to figure out what to tell her to do, and the Mishna Berura does not discuss this case. So all you Rabbi-wanna-be’s – what would you say? I’ll give you a chance to comment before I give away what I told her on the spot, how I would formulate the issue or question, and what I think in hindsight the right answer is. The best solution is, of course, to get to davening on time and not have such problems, but such would make life too easy.


  1. It would seem to me that she would still said morid hatal (or nothing) at Shacharis and then automatically switch over at Mussaf. Having heard the announcement only matters for Mussaf because it's the specific switchover Amidah.

  2. Morid hatal is the best default answer. If there were no marid hatal refuge, I would say that she is not part of the tzibbur, according, e.g., to Reb Moshe, and she should begin only in mussaf. Just being in the building doesn't make her part of the tzibur.

  3. Melbournite12:31 AM

    Off the top of my head.

    Do not go in until after the announcement or saying shacharit.

    I have seen a minyan with a silent announcement ( card passed around)

  4. Anonymous7:15 AM

    i would say it based on tos. in taanis 2b brings a yerushalmi that says the reason not to say it by shacarit is bc people will think you started to mention it by maariv which is incorrect. this hakpadah is on the tzibbur b.c no one hears the individuals hazkarah. in addition to this, the lashon of the mishnah and braisa is haover lifnei hatevah mazkir, which means its a din on the shliach tzibur to mention it at mussaf, not that there was a specific takanah on the mispalel to mention it at mussaf.

  5. Sefer haMinhagim, of Chabad, says( on p. 68, last line before the notes, and first two lines of p. 69):
    באם שמע הכרזת משיב הרוח ומוריד הגשם קודם שהתפלל שחרית - אם אין מתפלל במנין אחר, נלפענ"ד אשר יאמר גם בשחרית משיב הרוח ומוריד הגשם

    In English:
    "If a person who was not praying with a different minyan heard the announcement of mashiv haruch u'morid hageshem before he had prayed Shacharis, it would appear to me that he should say this phrase in Shacharis as well [as in Mussaf].[584]"