Yesterday I posed the following question: my daughter entered shul just before the gabai announced to start saying mashiv ha’ruach u’mordi hageshem in musaf. She was still up to tefilas shacharis. Does she have to say mashiv ha’ruach in her tefilas shacharis?
I'll try to formulate the issue and do some analysis next post bl"n, but first here's my off-the cuff answer in the few moments I had to think of something: I advised her to say morid ha’tal (and hats off to those in the comments who agree). Nothing is lost by adding morid ha’tal in the summer months, but at the same time, saying morid ha’tal in the rainy season is sufficient without mashiv ha’ruach. No matter what, her tefilah would be OK. One nitpick that occurred to me later: the halacha is that b’dieved on Shmini Atzeres if you said mashiv ha’ruach even in shacharis or ma’ariv you are yotzei. Is it still better to say morid ha’tal, or would it have been better to say mashiv ha'ruach given that b'dieved it would have been OK anyway?
A talmid chacham I asked suggested, as some others have commented, that my daughter should have stood outside the shul and not listened to the announcement. I don’t think that works. If someone is at home davening alone, even though he/she hears no announcement, he/she is still obligated to add mashiv ha’ruach in musaf. Apparently actually hearing the announcement is not necessary to create the obligation to start saying mashiv ha’ruach – all that matters is that you are part of a tzibur where such an announcement has been made. If someone at home counts as part of the tzibur, certainly someone standing in the lobby counts as well (though you could counterargue that standing outside with explicit intent to divorce oneself from the tzibur carries more weight than stam being at home...)
Ad kan my hava amina. After the fact I found a Pri Megadim that I thought may answer the question. The Pri Megadim writes that if for some reason someone announced at shacharis to start saying mashiv ha’ruach, the tzibur should still not add it to their tefilah at that point. An announcement heard during shacharis does not matter one iota. Doesn’t this prove that in my daughter’s situation, where she heard the announcement before her tefilas shacharis, that she should just ignore it?
Not so fast. Perhaps the Pri Megadim does not mean that an announcement should be discounted simply because you are still davening shacharis. What he means is that an announcement made too early, during shacharis, is not considered an announcement! In my daughter's situation where the announcement was made in its proper time, to the tzibur davening musaf, perhaps it would be considered a valid cause for her to say mashiv ha’ruach even though she personally was only up to tefilas shacharis.
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RCB,
ReplyDeleteAs you note, a person switches when his kehillah does, even if davening beyechidus and nowhere around the announcement.
Isn't that more similar to your daughter's situation than the Pri Megadim's case?
-micha
That was the point I was addressing regarding the going out sevara.
ReplyDeleteA talmid chacham I asked suggested, as some others have commented, that my daughter should have stood outside the shul and not listened to the announcement. I don’t think that works. If someone is at home davening alone, even though he/she hears no announcement, he/she is still obligated to add mashiv ha’ruach in musaf.
ReplyDeleteI'd say the difference is between when the person "knows"( i.e. has estimated) the announcement to have been made and when they actually hear( or are informed of) it. If they haven't gotten word that it was made, they could estimate it later than, in reality, it was made( see Qisur Shulchan Arukh 19:1: "וחולה שמתפלל ביחידות בביתו, וכן בני הכפרים שאין להם מנין, ימתינו בתפלת מוסף עד השעה שבוודאי התפללו בעיירות מוסף, ואז יתפללו גם המה מוסף ויאמרוהו").
So, if your daughter "knows" the Gabai will make the announcement at 9:30, and she will start the Amida of Shacharit at 9:15, but the Gabai actually makes the announcement at 9:10: If she is outside the Beit Keneset( and doesn't hear that the announcement has been made by 9:10), she would be in the clear, but having heard it - that's where the question begins.
On the other hand, I would say that standing just outside the Beit Keneset is Lo Mo'il, because she would still know that the announcement has been made by the time she gets to the Amida of Shacharit, and the problem remains: It's the knowing that the announcement was made, not the hearing it made, that makes the requirement to make the changeover.
veleAniyut Da'ati Katavti