Tuesday, July 09, 2013

chareidi autonomy from the state -- what agreement?

As reported here, R' Ahron Feldman, Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisrael, said the following in a recent speech about the situation in Israel:
Some Jews chose not to back the state. Our Gedolim felt that they could join with the state, on condition that they be granted autonomy. They would have their own education system, and other autonomous rights. This was the basis of the status quo agreement.
I'm curious: which gedolim is he is referring to when he says "our Gedolim" and what agreement (which apparently the state, at least in his view, was a willing party to) is he talking about?   Can someone point me to anything in writing from chareidi gedolim that would indicate an acceptance of zionism in exchange for a quid pro quo acceptance of charedi autonomy in certain areas?  Excuse my ignorance if this is something everyone knows about except me.

Simply as a matter of government/politics, for a democratic state to grant autonomous rights to a select group of citizens would be pretty remarkable.

As for the rest of the speech -- it's not worth dissecting.  I've abandoned all hope of understanding the arguments and rhetoric of the chareidi world.  I don't think anyone not already drinking the kool-aid is convinced by these speeches, and that's probably not the goal anyway -- it's probably just to rally those already on board.

Update: Daniel commented that R' Feldman was referring to Ben Gurion's letter of 1947.  Only problem is Ben Gurion's letter specifically says, "The state will naturally determine the minimum requirement of compulsory studies in Hebrew language, history, science, and so forth, and will supervise this minimum."  So I'm still confused as to why R' Feldman would start with this point, but what do I know.

9 comments:

  1. How do I contact you Reb Divrei Chaim?

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    1. Leave a comment or check the blogger profile page for my e-mail address. If I put it here I have a feeling I will be flooded with spam.

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  2. The "status quo agreement" is well known in the academic israeli world, even in the most anti-religious and virulent among them. If memory serves me correctly it stipulated --not exactly universal autonomy-- but separate educational systems for the chareidim, kosher food in all govt institutions, and no govt transportation on shabbo, power over kidushhin and geirushin.

    start here and then read the further footnotes for further references.

    http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A1%D7%98%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A1_%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%95_(%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C)

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    1. Did the agreement for separate educational systems include a promise of funding? Or support for families where the adults refuse to work? Autonomy - unless you're a palestinian - usually includes the right and obligation to provide your own financial wherewithal.

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    2. G.U. -- that's the catch, isn't it? Autonomy in this context means freedom to do an you wish without the responsibility that goes with it. Kind of like what teenage children expect (speaking from personal experience in dealing with my kids).

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  3. My 2 cents: from a technical perspective the chareidim are right that many of the agreements promised by the "status quo agreement" are slowly being taken away from them... the problem is though that in hindsight, the govt offered something that it really couldn't come through on or guarantee on for the indefinite future. You can't have a city like Tel-Aviv, with a significant percent of non-jews living there and an overwhelming percentage of chilonim living there and expect everyone to respect no public transportation on shabbat.... something will have to give sooner or later if the demographics stay the same...

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  4. thanks for the reply.
    It seems a strange place to start the discussion, as the "status quo" agreement did not address the draft and does specify that there should be minimal education standards (whatever they are).

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  5. whadya know... just happened to come across this while working on wikisource: draft of the letter:

    http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%91_%D7%94%D7%A1%D7%98%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A1_%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%95

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    1. Maybe I didn't look carefully, but I couldn't find a date on this. Any ideas?

      Incidentally, the government explicitly reserved the right to specify minimum standards of secular studies in these schools - including every subject which is being rejected today by the adherents of the "status quo".

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