Wednesday, December 25, 2024

Tos shita on mehadrin min ha'mehadrin - a question that has me stumped

The gemara writes that there are three possible levels to fulfill the mitzvah of neiros Chanuka:

1) ner ish u'beiso - one candle lit every night for the entire household

2) mehadrin - every person in the household lights one candle each night 

3) mehadrin min ha'mehadrin - add one candle every night.  Tos' and the Rambam disagree whether this level builds on the level of mehadrin, i.e. every person in the house lights and adds an additional candle every night, or whether this level builds on ner ish u'beiso, i.e. one person in the household lights and adds an additional candle each night

Tosfos argues that the latter interpretation must be correct.  The whole point of adding the additional candle each night is to demonstrate which night of Chanuka it is.  If every person in the household lights, there is no way the viewer can figure that out.  If, for example, you see 4 candles burning in the window, does that mean it's the first night of Chanuka and there are 4 people in the house each lighting, or does that mean it is the second night of Chanuka and two people are lighting, or is it the fouth night of Chanuka and there is only one person lighting?  The only way the lighting can reflect the day is if we assume one and only one person in the household lights.

I'm not interested in how to answer this question and justify our minhag.  I'm interested in how minei u'bei Tosfos makes sense.  Even if mehadrin min ha'mehadrin means only one person per household lights, still, how can I know what night of Chanuka it is?  Remember, there are three possible levels of fulfilling the mitzvah.  If I see 4 candles burning in the window, how do I know that that home lit mehadrin min ha'mehadrin and it therefore is day 4 of Chanuka?  Maybe in that household they only keep the mehadrin level.  Mehadrin means every member of the house lights one candle.  4 candles might means four people at home, each lighting one candle like the mehadrin custom?  Tos' hasn't solved their own problem!

I've learned this sugya multiple times over the years and for whatever reason, this never occurred to me before.  It's a simple pshat question and I am stumped.  I keep thinking I must be missing something, but I've asked a few people and so far no one has come up with a real answer.  To say that Tos' assumed everyone lit mehadrin min ha'mehadrin seems like a big dochak.  The gemara gives three levels and Tos' comment has to be taken in that context. Anyone have a good idea?  

11 comments:

  1. I have an idea. Not sure if it's a good idea.

    Tosafos there states that the macholokes Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel is on the Ner Ish U'beiso, "sh'kein yesh yoseir hiddur d'ikka heikera she'hu k'negged yamim ha nichnasim oh ha yotzim."

    The extra hiddur is to do it in a way that has a heiker. That doesn't mean everyone will now exactly what is intended, just that it is done in a way they can know. If you do it the other way, there is no heiker at all.

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    1. Sorry, but I don't see how you've answered the question. Given the possibility that the household only lit k'mehadrin and not mehadrin min ha'mehadrin, where is the heker to yamim nichnasim/yotzim?
      The heker is there is only if you have additional info, i.e. that they lit mehadrin min ha'mehadrin.
      By the same token, if you follow the Rambam and everyone lights, there will also be heker if you have the additional information of how many people live in the house.
      What's the chiluk?

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  2. Maybe its not about a heker being there on a single night, but a heker being there for someone who looks at his neighbors window over the course of multiple nights of the holiday.

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    1. Then why does Tos disagree with the Rambam? If one night you see 4 candles and the next night 5, you know there is one person and we went from night 4 to 5. If you see 6 candles the next night, there were 2 people and we went from night 2 to 3. If there are 8 candles on the next night, you know there were 4 people and we went from night 1 to night 2.

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    2. You're right, if the number of people happens to stay the same each night, but that is not guaranteed and in fact the number of candles might go up and down throughout the chag depending on the number of peolple and there is no longer any apparent connection with the number of nights, a problem you dont have in the tos approach.

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    3. same problem: you see 4 candles in your neighbors window, and next night you see 5. Is it the 5th night of chanukah and they light mehadrin min ha'mehadrin, or are they lighting only like mehadrin but last night 4 people were home and tonight 5 people are home?

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  3. Tosfos holds that the shita of mmhm, bsh or bh, disagrees with the option of m precisely because of your point.

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    1. Disagrees? There is not a machlokes - it's three different ways to fulfill the mitzvah. The Rambam quotes all three possibilities and I dont see that Tos disagrees. Lashon of Tos is נראה לר"י דב"ש וב"ה לא קיימי אלא אנר איש וביתו -- it's a question of whether mosif v'holeich modifies the ner ish u'beiso level or the mehadrin level, but they don't reject the mehadrin level possibility outright.

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    2. It does sound like that. But evidently that is not what Tosfos holds.
      I think RYME also learns like that in 671:3, to wit:
      ופירשו רבותינו בעלי התוספות דהמהדרין מן המהדרין לא סבירא להו כהמהדרין, להדליק לכל אחד נר אחד, דאם כן, כיון דטעמייהו שהרואה בהנרות יהיה יודע מזה כמה ימים יש בחנוכה, ואם ידליק נרות לפי מספר בני אדם שבבית – עדיין לא יתוודע לו כמה ימים עתה. ולדוגמא כשיראה ארבעה נרות – יכול להיות שבכאן איש אחד והוי יום רביעי של חנוכה, ואולי יש בכאן שני אנשים והוי יום שני, או ארבעה אנשים והוי יום ראשון. ולכן לא היו מדליקין רק נר אחד לכל בני הבית, ובשניה שני נרות, וכו'.

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  4. >>>It does sound like that. But evidently that is not what Tosfos holds.

    >>>ופירשו רבותינו בעלי התוספות דהמהדרין מן המהדרין לא סבירא להו כהמהדרין, ***להדליק לכל אחד נר אחד***

    You ignored the last half of the sentence -- mmhm doesn't work with **every person lighting**, which is what happens on the mehadrin level. It doesn't say they reject mehadrin en toto as a valid way to fulfill the mitzvah.

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  5. The Ah'S is explicating Tos, which he learned exactly like I did. He does not ask my question, nor does he say that mmh"m rejects mehadrin. All he says is that mmh"n cannot allow for everyone in the house to light because there is no heker.
    If anything, the Ah's is even more difficult approach. He concludes that so long as you can make a heker, everyone in the house can light, and Tos would agree with Rambam. If mmhm rejects the ideas that there was a takana of mehadrin for everyone to light, what would be the point?
    I dont know what else to say other than I just dont see what you are saying in the words.

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